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Can Riots Be Just?

h2odragon 5y ago
The question is, can the riot and the government that's supposedly bringing social order both be just, at the same time? Or is the riot a sign that the government is in need of changing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_%281946%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_%281946%29
- ContrarianBrit 5y ago
  Very interesting - I hadn't heard of the Battle of Athens. I guess that a riot isn't necessarily a sign of the need for change of government. In all polities, there are people who will riot against the government!
raxxorrax 5y ago
I think it can be just against public property, depends on the circumstance. I don't think it can ever be just against private individuals if it is not an act of self defense.
- ContrarianBrit 5y ago
  Yes - the different impact on private and public entities is crucial. Generally, I'm skeptical about almost all riots. Most can't be adequately controlled, entailing damage to the property/persons of private individuals.
jprd 5y ago
“Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. ... But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again.”[0] - Dr. King Unfortunately, in the case of the Jan 6th insurrection in the US, this applies as well. Though in that event, it is the failure of Americans to accept truth/facts and instead protect their fragile worldview by wrapping it in lies from public officials. [0]: https://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm https://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm
- ContrarianBrit 5y ago
  As I say in the post, I think it's very difficult to determine what constitutes a 'just' riot. For Trump supporters, the 6th Jan insurrection would be just!
PaulHoule 5y ago
So? Jello Biafra said “Tomorrow you’re homeless, tonight it’s a blast.” Visit a ‘food desert’ today and you might find people burned down the supermarket 30 years ago. The biggest losers from a riot are almost always the people who live there.
- ContrarianBrit 5y ago
  Agree - riots almost always affect individuals negatively. In a liberal democracy, they are almost always unjust.
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    Whether they are just or not just they usually affect the rioters more than the people who the rioters blame for their problems. The Jan 6th riots are a counterexample to that because they are a rare example of people driving long distances to participate in in a riot. It boggles my mind that the common view is so devoid of history and context. Look at most countries, say France or Egypt, it seems the most common cause of a riot is that the cost of fuel goes up. In the U.S., on the other hand, the main cause of riots since at least the 1960s has been the perception (and reality) of police misconduct on the part of blacks. People today, with a myopic viewpoint, like to imagine that the murder of George Floyd or some other recent event is a decisive turning point but if you stop to think about it there were the Watts riots, riots over the beating of Rodney King, etc. Go read the words of outstanding black men in the past like Booker T. Washington and you find many of them were resentful of how they were treated by the cops. It's a chronic problem and the most certain way to make sure it persists is to treat it as if it was an acute problem.
krapp 5y ago
Recently: "Why is there no theory of the just riot?" [0] (204 comments) [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30115410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30115410
- ContrarianBrit 5y ago
  This post further discusses that article...

The question is, can the riot and the government that's supposedly bringing social order both be just, at the same time? Or is the riot a sign that the government is in need of changing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_%281946%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_%281946%29

ContrarianBrit 5y ago
Very interesting - I hadn't heard of the Battle of Athens. I guess that a riot isn't necessarily a sign of the need for change of government. In all polities, there are people who will riot against the government!

raxxorrax 5y ago

I think it can be just against public property, depends on the circumstance. I don't think it can ever be just against private individuals if it is not an act of self defense.

ContrarianBrit 5y ago
Yes - the different impact on private and public entities is crucial. Generally, I'm skeptical about almost all riots. Most can't be adequately controlled, entailing damage to the property/persons of private individuals.

jprd 5y ago

“Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. ... But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again.”[0] - Dr. King Unfortunately, in the case of the Jan 6th insurrection in the US, this applies as well. Though in that event, it is the failure of Americans to accept truth/facts and instead protect their fragile worldview by wrapping it in lies from public officials. [0]: https://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm https://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm

ContrarianBrit 5y ago
As I say in the post, I think it's very difficult to determine what constitutes a 'just' riot. For Trump supporters, the 6th Jan insurrection would be just!

PaulHoule 5y ago

So? Jello Biafra said “Tomorrow you’re homeless, tonight it’s a blast.” Visit a ‘food desert’ today and you might find people burned down the supermarket 30 years ago. The biggest losers from a riot are almost always the people who live there.

ContrarianBrit 5y ago
Agree - riots almost always affect individuals negatively. In a liberal democracy, they are almost always unjust.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  Whether they are just or not just they usually affect the rioters more than the people who the rioters blame for their problems. The Jan 6th riots are a counterexample to that because they are a rare example of people driving long distances to participate in in a riot. It boggles my mind that the common view is so devoid of history and context. Look at most countries, say France or Egypt, it seems the most common cause of a riot is that the cost of fuel goes up. In the U.S., on the other hand, the main cause of riots since at least the 1960s has been the perception (and reality) of police misconduct on the part of blacks. People today, with a myopic viewpoint, like to imagine that the murder of George Floyd or some other recent event is a decisive turning point but if you stop to think about it there were the Watts riots, riots over the beating of Rodney King, etc. Go read the words of outstanding black men in the past like Booker T. Washington and you find many of them were resentful of how they were treated by the cops. It's a chronic problem and the most certain way to make sure it persists is to treat it as if it was an acute problem.

krapp 5y ago

Recently: "Why is there no theory of the just riot?" [0] (204 comments) [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30115410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30115410

ContrarianBrit 5y ago
This post further discusses that article...