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New lightweight material is stronger than steel
- chainwax 5y agoI recall hearing similar claims of graphene a while back. I realize that the lag time between academic proof-of-concept and commercial availability is large, but I still haven't heard of any products coming out that are made of graphene. Do these materials' use cases overlap?
- soperj 5y agoI don't think anyone has ever claimed that graphene is easy to manufacture.
- chasil 5y agoI think anybody can make it with adhesive tape and a piece of graphite, or so the Nobel prize led me to believe. Making it in large sizes is more difficult. https://www.abitape.com/an-unlikely-hero-how-sticky-tape-led-to-the-nobel-prize/ https://www.abitape.com/an-unlikely-hero-how-sticky-tape-led...
- HPsquared 5y agoCarbon nanotubes have a similar situation: they're often present in soot, but the hard part is to make them in a controlled way in large amounts. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28278030/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28278030/
- Lio 5y ago> but I still haven't heard of any products coming out that are made of graphene. Vitoria have sold bike tyres using a graphine layer for a couple of years now: https://www.vittoria.com/ww/en/tyres/road-tires/corsa https://www.vittoria.com/ww/en/tyres/road-tires/corsa They were used by both the winners of the Tour de France and Vuelta a Espana last year.
- gloriana 5y agointeresting research and not sure what to make of it. But did stumble on a more comical discovery by these MIT professors - heated covid masks lol : https://news.mit.edu/2020/heated-face-mask-coronaviruses-1021 https://news.mit.edu/2020/heated-face-mask-coronaviruses-102...
- montjoy 5y ago> and can be easily manufactured in large quantities That seems promising. I have a couple of concerns - Can it be recycled? - How are new materials like this tested for toxicity?
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago> a couple of concerns - Can it be recycled? Right. We have enough issues with plastic waste, without it having extra-ordinary strength.
- cooljacob204 5y agoAlso steel is 100% recyclable. If I recall correctly, most steel used today is recycled.
- missedthecue 5y agoMost steel in the US and Europe is recycled. I believe most steel in China and to a larger extent Asia comes out of a giant pit in Australia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yandicoogina_mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yandicoogina_mine
- javajosh 5y agoThat mine runs fully automated ore trucks and the owner Rio Tinto wants to automate the rest. 950 ppl produce 18% of the world's iron ore from that pit. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-18/rio-tinto-opens-worlds-first-automated-mine/6863814 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-18/rio-tinto-opens-world...
- dzhiurgis 5y agoIf this has 100x less carbon footprint and steel is 90% recycled, the polymer still wins overall.
- worik 5y ago
- Melatonic 5y agoToo bad the article does not actually say what the material is made out of. Does this beat UHWMPE? Because UHMWPE is already damn strung stuff for its weight. But the big downside being that because it is so damn dense it cannot be thermoformed (the big plus being that it also has a huge range of temperature resistance) edit: Correction, it looks like they call it "polyaramide" which sounds like it is similar to Aramid like Kevlar. Interesting
- throwaway4aday 5y ago> For the monomer building blocks, they use a compound called melamine, which contains a ring of carbon and nitrogen atoms. Under the right conditions, these monomers can grow in two dimensions, forming disks. These disks stack on top of each other, held together by hydrogen bonds between the layers, which make the structure very stable and strong.
- prova_modena 5y agoThe article says it is a melamine polymer.
- giantg2 5y agoConsidering the army is one of the research sponsors, it sounds like it would be a candidate for a component (backer/trauma pad) in body armor.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- zwieback 5y agoHmm, here it says 2D polymers were created first at ETH in 2012: https://scitechdaily.com/two-dimensional-polymers-created-for-the-first-time/ https://scitechdaily.com/two-dimensional-polymers-created-fo... Either way, looking forward to buying this stuff cheap and in bulk from McMaster!
- jdonaldson 5y agoProbably will be a go-to for fixing up old buildings and failing bridges. We always can use more tools there. On the other hand, I wonder what kinds of hoops one has to jump through to demolish/recycle this material.
- soperj 5y agoWonder if it work as a rebar replacement that doesn't rust.
- rini17 5y agoDepends on thermal expansion coefficient. If the solution chemistry is compatible with concrete then it might be mixed in and polymerize together, and that would be yet more exciting.
- throwaway4aday 5y agoJust coat the rebar, one of its properties is that it's impermeable to liquids and gases.
- r2_pilot 5y agoThat doesn't help if it expands differently from the rebar and concrete. One of the advantages of rebar is that it has a similar coefficient of thermal expansion so when there are temperature changes the concrete and rebar expand and contract in sync and don't have stresses from that.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- soperj 5y agoIf it's stronger & lighter than steel and produces less CO2 than steel manufacturing...
- throwaway4aday 5y agoForgot the most important part, is it cheaper than steel?
- Ekaros 5y agoAlso can it be produced at scale we produce steel... Which is mind boggling when you really start to think of all the stuff.
- throwaway4aday 5y agoCan't wait for 3D printed parts made out of this stuff. > the new material’s elastic modulus — a measure of how much force it takes to deform a material — is between four and six times greater than that of bulletproof glass. They also found that its yield strength, or how much force it takes to break the material, is twice that of steel, even though the material has only about one-sixth the density of steel. That's going to make for some fun prints. Edit: density of steel is 7.85 g/cm3 and 1/6 of that is 1.3 which makes it less dense than wood! (1.5 g/cm3) It floats!
- gp 5y agoIt would still sink as water has a density of 1, depending. I think your lookup for wood's density gave you a number belonging to a hardwood.
- throwaway4aday 5y agoYou're right, but it is close. Add some air bubbles and it would be buoyant.
- HPsquared 5y agoI mean technically a submarine is just a bunch of steel and one big air bubble.
- throwaway4aday 5y agoIt's all about the size of the air bubble.
- blix 5y agoIt's hard to say without reading the paper itself, but in general one should be skeptical of claims that such-and-such material is stronger than steel. The properties that make steel interesting are not its elastic modulus or yield strength. This material is probably closer to graphite (which beats steel in elastic modulus and yeild strength) than something you would actually want to use in a structural application. It will probably be ~very~ difficult to print.
- soperj 5y ago>The researchers have filed for two patents on the process they used to generate the material, which they describe in a paper appearing today in Nature. MIT postdoc Yuwen Zeng is the lead author of the study. Anyone think they could find the patent that were filed? Or is it only once they're approved that you can see them?
- Ballu 5y agoI think, this is the patent https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/patent/US-2021002426-A1 https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/patent/US-2021002426-A1
- ngngngng 5y agoThe article touches on potential to use instead of steel, perhaps even in buildings. But I imagine its heat tolerance would likely kill any chances of that, no?
- throwaway4aday 5y agoIt's potentially a thermoset plastic in which case it should be able to resist somewhat high temperatures (maybe 300C). So not fireproof but not terrible either.
- cbg0 5y agoAs a comparison, various types of insulation are rated for 60/90 minutes at 1000 degrees Celsius, while some types of brick are rated for 180 minutes. If this material can't sustain similar temperatures, it's unlikely it will be used in construction.
- ngngngng 5y agoCan I ask how you know these things? Materials science is pretty far outside my area of expertise but I'd love to get a basic understanding of it.
- cbg0 5y agoThere are a bunch of standards for material fire classification, which may differ from country to country, but they're not really available to read online for free most of the time. You can do some googling around A1 fire classes, EI fire rating and so on. A useful thing to know is that a house fire revolves around 800 degrees Celsius typically, so you should expect various materials that have a fire resistance rating to take more than that for a sustained period.
- AnimalMuppet 5y agoWait, what happens to brick after 180 minutes at 1000 Celsius? I assumed they would either burn or not burn, melt or not melt.
- Bancakes 5y agoSometimes you want steel because it's dense and rugged - it can physically withstand damage and last longer. As in steel engines versus titanium ones.
- mikeyouse 5y agoActual journal article from Nature (Edit: requires sub, look one comment below for an ungated version): https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04296-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04296-3 (Not on SciHub yet but the figures provide some useful info)
- blix 5y agoNature is asking for a subscription, so here's a version on arxiv: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2103/2103.13925.pdf https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2103/2103.13925.pdf
- girafffe_i 5y agoCan it be made transparent? There's a comparison to the strength of bulletproof glass, but if this can also be transparent... Also, how does this affect the recyclability of current waste plastics?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- metal_am 5y agoLink to the paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.13925.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.13925.pdf
- kazinator 5y agoLots of old lightweight materials show tensile strength greater than steel. For instance, oh, nylon fiber is stronger than some steels, and way less dense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength#Typical_tensile_strengths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength#Typi... One kind of steel, "ASTM steel" comes in at 400-500 MPa; nylon fibers at 900. Check out the Bamboo entry in the table. Human hair is also impressive.
- timlarshanson 5y agoYep. This is a very interesting material, and of course it's a research prototype -- but it's not very strong. They list the modulus as 12.7 GPa and the yield strength (= ultimate tensile strength, since the film tears) as 488 MPa. In comparison, polyimide (PMDA-PPD), which also easily solvent processable, has a modulus of 8.9 GPa, and a yield strength of 350 MPa. Less equal comparisons involve polymers that are molecuarly aligned by drawing, spinning, or chemical processes. Dyneema UHMEPE has a modulus of 110 GPa and a ultimate tensile strength of 3.5 GPa. Kevlar is similar; it utilizes interlocking hydrogen bonds to convey strength. Even stronger are glass fibers (>4 GPa tensile strength) or PAN carbon fiber (> 6 GPa tensile strength). You of course lose some strength when you make composites out of fiber -- but irregardless this polymer is many times weaker and softer.
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y agoBIS80 is a structural steel who's formula is owned by Bisalloy and produced under license by steel manufacturers. BIS80 has a yield strength in excess of 620 Mpa, and an ultimate tensile strength in the range 720 to 930 Mpa. See here for more info https://www.bisalloy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/BISALLOY%C2%AE-STRUCTURAL-80-STEEL-1.pdf https://www.bisalloy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/BISAL... BIS100 has a yield strength around the 890 MPa mark, and an ultimate tensile strength in the range 940 to 1100 MPa. See here for more info https://www.bisalloy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/BISALLOY%C2%AE-STRUCTURAL-100-STEEL.pdf https://www.bisalloy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/BISAL... Nylon is lighter, but it also loses about 20% of its tensile strength when wet.
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- Scene_Cast2 5y agoJust a heads up - strength is not a single metric. There is tensile (pulling), compression, and shear (sliding) strength. There's also Young's modulus (how much something stretches), fatigue limits (steel can work perpetually with deformations under a certain threshold). There's also specific strength (strength per kg) vs strength per volume and strength per dollar. Steel also comes in lots of different flavors, with very different (orders of magnitude) strengths.
- olliej 5y agoYeah I was annoyed about how the article didn’t say what strength they were measuring. Not of course saying improvement in any of those metrics is bad, but the comparison being made needs to say what is being compared, and how it compares to the existing best in class.
- SAI_Peregrinus 5y agoAlso those metrics can vary with direction. For steel they're usually pretty uniform, but this new substance forms "2D sheets" so it's likely strength will be highly directional. Maximum tensile and compressive strength are likely to be 90° apart.
- robbedpeter 5y agoIt can form films, which they tested because coatings for things like solar panels and cars and tools are profitable. They also tested bulk plastic. It takes a long time to set, with hours in a gel phase, so epoxy-like mold pouring, flooring, and other bulk plastic applications are likely. It might be awesome for bullet proof armor, safety equipment, and lightweight cordage and fabrics. The synthesis is simple - it's an advance using polarized light at particular wavelengths in novel chemistry, probably inspired by the recent discovery in electrochemistry that can impose specific chirality on well known reactions.
- exo-pla-net 5y ago> The researchers found that the new material’s elastic modulus — a measure of how much force it takes to deform a material — is between four and six times greater than that of bulletproof glass. They also found that its yield strength, or how much force it takes to break the material, is twice that of steel, even though the material has only about one-sixth the density of steel.
- smm11 5y agoTougher than diamonds and stronger than steel?
- sandworm101 5y agoAre there any samples big enough to be seen without a microscope? After a decade or more reading about nanotubes and graphene I'm a little jaded about "easily manufactured in large quantities". How long does it take to create a solid 1-foot cube? If you are comparing a new material to steel or concrete "large quantities" means multiple tons per hour. I'm going to need to see a sample bigger than a doorstop.
- NAR8789 5y ago> Such a material could be used as a lightweight, durable coating for car parts or cell phones, or as a building material for bridges or other structures, says Michael Strano, the Carbon P. Dubbs Professor of Chemical Engineering at MIT and the senior author of the new study. Anyone else get immediately sidetracked by how metal the name "Carbon P. Dubbs" is? (and how unexpectedly apropos it is to chemical engineering?) https://digging-history.com/2016/01/18/tombstone-tuesday-carbon-petroleum-dubbs-a-for-real-name-with-a-rags-to-riches-story/ https://digging-history.com/2016/01/18/tombstone-tuesday-car... Apparently his full name was "Carbon Petroleum Dubbs" and the relation to chemical engineering isn't really coincidental.
- joseph8th 5y agoOk I'll ask the question: Will it fill the oceans with indestructible junk?
- NiceWayToDoIT 5y agoHow much does it cost to produce? Can we build rocket that will go to Mars out of it?
- mrfusion 5y agoHave they tested this for super conductivity?
- cousin_it 5y agoMaybe a stupid thought, but could a carbon-based building material be the best possible news for carbon sequestration? I mean, we humans need a lot of buildings.
- atrus 5y agoI'd argue that most of our building in North America are built from carbon based materials, wood.
- arendtio 5y agoAnd we thought spaceships would be built out of transparent aluminum ;-)
- californiasurf 5y agoThis material should produce some interesting surfboard designs
- 0xbadcafebee 5y agoWhat happens when it catches fire?
- tomrod 5y agoAny time I see one of these numerous claims, I apply the following question set: [1] What are the other metrics to consider? Compression, shear, tensile, and so on (another comment mentions this) [2] What are the expected production costs? [3] Are the costs internalized for production? (I.e. no more teflon ecodisasters) [4] Where should it be used? "Anything" can be "stronger" than "steel" -- it matters what the use cases are. Lasers are great to send signals, but we don't want to establish worldwide mesh protocols with it
- T-A 5y ago> Lasers are great to send signals, but we don't want to establish worldwide mesh protocols with it https://earthsky.org/space/spacex-lasers-will-define-next-starlink-technology-era/ https://earthsky.org/space/spacex-lasers-will-define-next-st...
- thedatamonger 5y agoHerbert was a prophet. https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Plasteel https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Plasteel
- tom-thistime 5y agoQuick note: this is MIT's PR folks again, not a technical article.
- riskable 5y agoI can't believe no one has mentioned this: The researchers claim this material is completely impervious to gasses. Does that mean we've finally got a way to store hydrogen without having it constantly leaking away?
- kardos 5y agoAnd is that strength enough to put vacuum airships back on the menu?
- solarmist 5y agoI'm intrigued. What's a vacuum airship?
- kardos 5y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_airship https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_airship Like a blimp but with a rigid balloon filled (ha ha) with vacuum instead of a light gas. The article is saying it's a polymer so I'm guessing it doesn't have the right rigidity, ie, the stronger than steel bit must be with respect to a different strength measure
- solarmist 5y ago....wow, that is the most counter-intuitive idea I've seen in a long time! A helium balloon makes sense, it's lighter than air so it floats, duh. Well, what's lighter than that? Nothing (vacuum)! It's such a dumb, but correct answer that I had a hard time wrapping my head around it. Yup, theoretically a vacuum would be extremely buoyant if we could put it in a light enough structure.
- kardos 5y agoYeah it's nifty idea -- no need for explosive hydrogen or scarce helium. If the polymer sheet is strong enough, I wonder if one could use it to wrap a sort of scaffolding (a shape like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullerene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullerene but perhaps with struts through the interior for more strength), then evacuate the air from the interior in order to form a lighter-than-air "box". Submarines can withstand a few dozen atmospheres of pressure, this would have to withstand .. one, I suppose, so intuitively it seems plausible.
- sirtimbly 5y agoPressure vessels. Big ones.
- tagoregrtst 5y agoI hate title. Do they mean run of the mill plastic? What does stronger than steel mean? Tensile strength? Yield strength? Toughness? And “stronger” than steel is not that impressive in of itself. Many materials are stringer than steel. Steel’s combination of properties makes it useful, not merely its tensile strength.
- servytor 5y agoYay, Rearden Steel!
- ncmncm 5y agoAs I recall, it was "Rearden Metal" which had a lot of copper is in it. Rearden Steel was a dodgy startup company in Palo Alto around 25 years ago. The book does not age at all well.
- solarmist 5y agoI agree with a lot of the commenters here. This is a meaningless headline. The essential quality of the metal is its being rigid with the ability to deform without fracturing, so talking about its strength is useless. There are tons of things that are stronger than steel already. Still, they don't also have the property of deforming without destruction or, on the opposite, holding its form rigidly while maintaining its strength.
- boplicity 5y agoThe most important problem right now that needs to be solved, in terms of steel and plastics, is the carbon emissions caused when they are manufactured. The manufacture of these materials is one of the biggest sources of carbon emissions. I'm curious if this new material has the same emissions profile.
- worik 5y agoAs far as I can tell there is no analysis of what happens to the waste from this. In this day and age we have to consider the complete life cycle of a new material. I am really hoping there are acceptable answers, it would be cool to have a new polymer like this
- eucryphia 5y agoI hope its waste doesn't result in billions of microscopic scary-sharp razor blades spread everywhere.
- upsidesinclude 5y agoThis is a coating or a thin film, so far Stronger than steel doesn't mean much of anything, it's just a catchy headline for non engineers. This finding is not important because it's 'stronger that steel' It's a big deal because it's the first time someone has produced a 2D polymer, a sheet polymer, instead of a strand, 1D. 1D polymers are used in everything: textiles, rope or anything with plastic fibers, paints and epoxy, etc