4 ms·

Can we just call out how incredibly awesome this is? We might stumble along the way but this is as big as moving from horse carts to cars. Respect to all of you

Can we just call out how incredibly awesome this is? We might stumble along the way but this is as big as moving from horse carts to cars. Respect to all of you working on self driving cars!

quadrifoliate 5y ago
> Can we just call out how incredibly awesome this is? We might stumble along the way but this is as big as moving from horse carts to cars. I find it a bit hard to believe that people aren't more concerned about calling out what exact legal framework this operation is being allowed under. Having a car without a driver in it driving around seems like a massive risk for the drivers, pedestrians, and bicyclists sharing the streets of San Francisco; they should be entitled to know why they are test cases for these car-driving programs. The most I could find was that it seems to be this permit [1], and the link in it states: > Cruise’s permit is available at www.cpuc.ca.gov/avcissued. ...which is a 404. It also states: > More information on the CPUC’s Autonomous Vehicle Passenger Service Pilot Programs is available at www.cpuc.ca.gov/avcpilotinfo. ...which is also a 404. This does not...inspire confidence, to say the least. Given that official information about this seems to be a bit thin on the ground, I guess I'll ask the obvious question – if the cars hit and injure someone, is Cruise's CEO going to be held personally liable? The engineers who worked on the tech? The passengers in the car (who are the nearest thing to drivers)? It's not like this is an unexpected scenario, we have preexisting example of this happening [2]. Or is the plan to sweep real-life consequences under the carpet with euphemisms like "stumble along the way"? ---------------------------------------- [1] https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M387/K064/387064893.PDF https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M387/K... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elaine_Herzberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elaine_Herzberg
- newaccount74 5y ago
  Cynical take: Since human drivers are almost never held accountable for killing pedestrians or cyclists due to inattentive driving or poorly maintained vehicles, it's going to be the same for autonomous vehicles: it's always going to be an unfortunate, unavoidable accident.
- genewitch 5y ago
  Yeah I'm not keen on that euphemism either. I know from experience and messing around with ml/ai that the tech is not there yet, so I wager they're going to cheat by having a remote driver. In a dense city that has a lot of weather. I'll stay out of SF until this ends in a huge lawsuit.
  - lovehashbrowns 5y ago
    Cruise has been in SF for many years. It's actually hard to miss their cars if you're around the Sunset area a lot. Or it was when I lived there. I'm not sure if their area of operation has shifted out of there. So I hope you've been out of SF for a while. That was probably what made me feel like I was in SF more than anything else in SF. Seeing their cars drive by with the LIDR, cameras, and the person in the passenger seat staring at a MacBook Pro.
    - pm90 5y ago
      They’ve always had a person in their cars though. So this is a big difference since they’re saying the vehicles will be fully autonomous (no human supervisor in the vehicle).
- silentsea90 5y ago
  I don't know the answers. They're definitely worth figuring out, but the legal questions do not take away from the sheer gall to dream and achieve. Figuring out liability is in the domain of law, which is easy compared to building such engineering marvels. I am sure we can figure it out. Self driving car companies take safety VERY VERY seriously not just for potential legal consequences but because a single incident would make consumers lose trust, which is a death knell for such companies. For folks who think about Cruise's achievement cynically (not directed at the commenter), please consider what your stance would have been back in the day in the following situations: 1) Cars being introduced to challenge horse carts in the late 1800s and early 1900s 2) Countries like India spending on a Space program while having a considerable population below poverty line, rise of SpaceX 3) The rise of the internet in the 90s with its trivial applications like radio, silly websites etc If your answer is - oh of course I would cheer each of these, but view self driving cars cynically, good for you.
  - pm90 5y ago
    None of the other situations you’ve mentioned are similar to a self driving car being unleashed on an unsuspecting dense urban area without setting clear rules for what’s to happen in the worst case. These are the frameworks which guide decision making. Without clear guidelines, I have a lot of reason to doubt that eg a product team that really wants to deliver a feature will ship something without the proper amount of testing. If you’re letting autonomous multi ton vehicles roam around a dense city, I would expect them to go over and above in playing by the book.
    - silentsea90 5y ago
      I don't claim that laws don't have catching up to do, or that Cruise shouldn't be liable for any loss to life or property they may cause. We can be appreciate their achievement while being cognizant of the need for laws around this. My second comment was targeted at naysayers and pessimists who find faults and issues everywhere. Yes gaps exist and that's how tech and society plays catch up, but let's not miss the forest for the trees here.
- lovehashbrowns 5y ago
  Cruise in particular has been around in San Francisco for a while. https://techcrunch.com/2020/12/09/cruise-begins-driverless-testing-in-san-francisco/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/12/09/cruise-begins-driverless-t... > The California DMV, the agency that regulates autonomous vehicle testing in the state, issued Cruise a permit in October that allows the company to test five autonomous vehicles without a driver behind the wheel on specified streets within San Francisco. Cruise has had a permit to test autonomous vehicles with safety drivers behind the wheel since 2015. I saw their cars a lot while I lived in San Francisco. But back then they had safety drivers and such. Information about the permit can be found here https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/autonomous-vehicles/autonomous-vehicle-deployment-program/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/auto...
- bluGill 5y ago
  Sure I'm concerned about that. I'm also very concerned about how bad human drivers are and how deadly cars are. So long as they beat humans I'm happy to have them. (I'd rather have great transit, but I'll take what I can get)
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
I... don't think it's as big a step as that, because back when horse carts and cars were around you could hire a driver. Net effect (not having to drive yourself) is the same. It's an evolutionary step, not a revolution. I don't see it having as dramatic an effect on society or how cities are built as cars did.
- tim333 5y ago
  It's like the change from horse and cart to a crappy early car that wasn't much better. But it's the start of the AI revolution which will have quite an effect.

Can we just call out how incredibly awesome this is? We might stumble along the way but this is as big as moving from horse carts to cars. Respect to all of you working on self driving cars!

quadrifoliate 5y ago

> Can we just call out how incredibly awesome this is? We might stumble along the way but this is as big as moving from horse carts to cars. I find it a bit hard to believe that people aren't more concerned about calling out what exact legal framework this operation is being allowed under. Having a car without a driver in it driving around seems like a massive risk for the drivers, pedestrians, and bicyclists sharing the streets of San Francisco; they should be entitled to know why they are test cases for these car-driving programs. The most I could find was that it seems to be this permit [1], and the link in it states: > Cruise’s permit is available at www.cpuc.ca.gov/avcissued. ...which is a 404. It also states: > More information on the CPUC’s Autonomous Vehicle Passenger Service Pilot Programs is available at www.cpuc.ca.gov/avcpilotinfo. ...which is also a 404. This does not...inspire confidence, to say the least. Given that official information about this seems to be a bit thin on the ground, I guess I'll ask the obvious question – if the cars hit and injure someone, is Cruise's CEO going to be held personally liable? The engineers who worked on the tech? The passengers in the car (who are the nearest thing to drivers)? It's not like this is an unexpected scenario, we have preexisting example of this happening [2]. Or is the plan to sweep real-life consequences under the carpet with euphemisms like "stumble along the way"? ---------------------------------------- [1] https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M387/K064/387064893.PDF https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M387/K... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elaine_Herzberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elaine_Herzberg

newaccount74 5y ago
Cynical take: Since human drivers are almost never held accountable for killing pedestrians or cyclists due to inattentive driving or poorly maintained vehicles, it's going to be the same for autonomous vehicles: it's always going to be an unfortunate, unavoidable accident.
genewitch 5y ago
Yeah I'm not keen on that euphemism either. I know from experience and messing around with ml/ai that the tech is not there yet, so I wager they're going to cheat by having a remote driver. In a dense city that has a lot of weather. I'll stay out of SF until this ends in a huge lawsuit.
- lovehashbrowns 5y ago
  Cruise has been in SF for many years. It's actually hard to miss their cars if you're around the Sunset area a lot. Or it was when I lived there. I'm not sure if their area of operation has shifted out of there. So I hope you've been out of SF for a while. That was probably what made me feel like I was in SF more than anything else in SF. Seeing their cars drive by with the LIDR, cameras, and the person in the passenger seat staring at a MacBook Pro.
  - pm90 5y ago
    They’ve always had a person in their cars though. So this is a big difference since they’re saying the vehicles will be fully autonomous (no human supervisor in the vehicle).
silentsea90 5y ago
I don't know the answers. They're definitely worth figuring out, but the legal questions do not take away from the sheer gall to dream and achieve. Figuring out liability is in the domain of law, which is easy compared to building such engineering marvels. I am sure we can figure it out. Self driving car companies take safety VERY VERY seriously not just for potential legal consequences but because a single incident would make consumers lose trust, which is a death knell for such companies. For folks who think about Cruise's achievement cynically (not directed at the commenter), please consider what your stance would have been back in the day in the following situations: 1) Cars being introduced to challenge horse carts in the late 1800s and early 1900s 2) Countries like India spending on a Space program while having a considerable population below poverty line, rise of SpaceX 3) The rise of the internet in the 90s with its trivial applications like radio, silly websites etc If your answer is - oh of course I would cheer each of these, but view self driving cars cynically, good for you.
- pm90 5y ago
  None of the other situations you’ve mentioned are similar to a self driving car being unleashed on an unsuspecting dense urban area without setting clear rules for what’s to happen in the worst case. These are the frameworks which guide decision making. Without clear guidelines, I have a lot of reason to doubt that eg a product team that really wants to deliver a feature will ship something without the proper amount of testing. If you’re letting autonomous multi ton vehicles roam around a dense city, I would expect them to go over and above in playing by the book.
  - silentsea90 5y ago
    I don't claim that laws don't have catching up to do, or that Cruise shouldn't be liable for any loss to life or property they may cause. We can be appreciate their achievement while being cognizant of the need for laws around this. My second comment was targeted at naysayers and pessimists who find faults and issues everywhere. Yes gaps exist and that's how tech and society plays catch up, but let's not miss the forest for the trees here.
lovehashbrowns 5y ago
Cruise in particular has been around in San Francisco for a while. https://techcrunch.com/2020/12/09/cruise-begins-driverless-testing-in-san-francisco/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/12/09/cruise-begins-driverless-t... > The California DMV, the agency that regulates autonomous vehicle testing in the state, issued Cruise a permit in October that allows the company to test five autonomous vehicles without a driver behind the wheel on specified streets within San Francisco. Cruise has had a permit to test autonomous vehicles with safety drivers behind the wheel since 2015. I saw their cars a lot while I lived in San Francisco. But back then they had safety drivers and such. Information about the permit can be found here https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/autonomous-vehicles/autonomous-vehicle-deployment-program/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/auto...
bluGill 5y ago
Sure I'm concerned about that. I'm also very concerned about how bad human drivers are and how deadly cars are. So long as they beat humans I'm happy to have them. (I'd rather have great transit, but I'll take what I can get)

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

I... don't think it's as big a step as that, because back when horse carts and cars were around you could hire a driver. Net effect (not having to drive yourself) is the same. It's an evolutionary step, not a revolution. I don't see it having as dramatic an effect on society or how cities are built as cars did.

tim333 5y ago
It's like the change from horse and cart to a crappy early car that wasn't much better. But it's the start of the AI revolution which will have quite an effect.