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> non-essential data sharing But it is essential. Google (and Apple) maps provide lane specific navigation directions, which are really only possible with assi
by dsl 5y ago
> non-essential data sharing
But it is essential. Google (and Apple) maps provide lane specific navigation directions, which are really only possible with assisted GPS. In theory GPS has the accuracy, but remember you are in a big metal box filled with electrical wires. Not to mention other applications like isle specific navigation within stores, which is made possible by bluetooth beacons.
Heck, we are on the verge of a major world conflict where GPS accuracy may be degraded intentionally by the US or jammed by other forces.
Edit: Navigation is used in situations other than racing down the autobahn at 100 mph. Wifi triangulation is used when you are doing 20 mph on a busy street and need to be in the right lane to make a turn, or when you are walking down the street and need to know which unmarked door is the business you are looking for.
Here is some background on why GPS is shit in urban environments: https://vitalalert.com/markets/positioning-smart-cities/3d-positioning-gps-denied-areas/ https://vitalalert.com/markets/positioning-smart-cities/3d-p...
- nmstoker 5y agoAre you suggesting that they have no choice but to completely stop locating the user as there's absolutely no way they could offer non-lane specific navigation? The vast majority of it would be identical and I'm sure they could easily and gracefully degrade to that when strictly necessary.
- DocTomoe 5y agoHow much does a company need to degrade a service - at potentially great cost - to be compliant before they can claim it then would be better not to provide the service at all to customers unwilling to share data? I am not claiming that this is where Google needs to draw the line in the sand - but there obviously is such a limit to these considerations.
- lozenge 5y agoGoogle doesn't have lane data for every road in the world, yet clearly navigation is already implemented to work without it? I don't know why people throw up random excuses for companies instead of accepting the simplest answer - they want as much data as they can.
- MagnumOpus 5y agoGoogle was able to provide the service before, now they patched it out. So clearly it is not a question of ability to gracefully degrade but of willingness.
- gbil 5y ago>But it is essential. Google (and Apple) maps provide lane specific navigation directions, which are really only possible with assisted GPS. I'm trying very hard to not be sarcastic, but the past 10+ years it was not essential and served me great every time
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- xg15 5y agoLane specific driving directions? How many Wifi access points and Bluetooth beacons is Google expecting to find on the highway while moving at 70mph?
- aftbit 5y agoI would presume they're hoping to find the devices of other nearby users?
- xg15 5y agoBut those would be in random cars around you, which are constantly moving. How could those help retrieving your own location on a map?
- im3w1l 5y agoIf there is a car travelling the same direction as you but a bit to the right, then you are not in the rightmost lane.
- drewzero1 5y agoHow would the phone know the wifi signal is coming from your right?
- gpm 5y agoBecause we also know about the car going in the other direction, and you came closer to it. Hypothetically. Or if gps errors are correlated between phones.
- im3w1l 5y agoGood point. Ok what about this then: Check the relative strength of cars travelling opposite way compared to same way.
- 5y ago
- michaelt 5y agoWifi and cell tower location are much less precise than GPS. They are irrelevant for lane detection. Where they are useful is when you are indoors. Or when a tracking business wants an excuse to send your location to their servers.
- magicjosh 5y agoRando: "So what's your company do?" Google employee: "I work at a tracking business"
- pigbearpig 5y agoIf we're at the point someone is jamming GPS, I guarantee lane specific directions is going to be about the last thing I care about.
- zepto 5y agoNot correct. Wifi is not used to boost precision at speed. That is generally done via dead reckoning using the gyroscope and accelerometer. Wifi helps with bootstrapping a coarse location quickly before satellites can be acquired, and with indoor positioning.
- tinus_hn 5y agoAnd (along with cellular data) with acquiring the almanac data via the Internet instead of waiting for up to 30 minutes for the satellites to broadcast it.
- Ocha 5y agoLast time I checked it took 12.5 minutes for full almanac broadcast... Did something change?
- FateOfNations 5y agoYes, but only under optimal conditions.
- seba_dos1 5y agoJust by downloading recent data without any prior knowledge of your location (aside of maybe determining which continent you're on, which most of the time is already known because of which cellular network you're connected to), you can usually easily reduce that to around a minute with no WiFi, BT or cellular triangulation necessary - and that's on a cold start; hot start will be instantaneous anyway.
- dessant 5y agoInformation about nearby devices is not essential for navigation, otherwise the permission wouldn't have been optional until now. It can improve the service in some situations, so the right way would be to explain the tradeoff and let the user control how much data is being shared.
- withinboredom 5y agoTinfoil hat: the number of US GPS satellites in operation has been going down, both in % of total satellites and in actual numbers over the years. I’d venture “US being able to rely on GPS” is probably not a great thing. That being said, wanting more user data is probably the right answer.
- gsich 5y agoNot really. That accuracy is not done with RSSI measurements from far away SSIDs.
- eternalban 5y ago> Heck, we are on the verge of a major world conflict where GPS accuracy may be degraded intentionally by the US or jammed by other forces. During which (brief?) time we will have other pressing concerns beyond degraded mapping services. Why should this temporary condition that on its own is certainly not 'crippling' be an excuse for accepting that Google/Alphabet and like minded corporations want technical approaches that enable them to know everything about us 24/7?
- kelnos 5y ago> But it is essential. Google (and Apple) maps provide lane specific navigation directions, which are really only possible with assisted GPS. Assuming that's true (I'm skeptical), there's no reason why it can't gracefully degrade without the added information. Regardless, I'm not sure what you mean by lane-specific navigation. Yes, I've seen Google put up a little drawing of the multiple lanes, with the correct lanes for the next turn in bright white, and the incorrect lanes in grey, but that doesn't need to know what lane you're currently in, as it just highlights which lanes are correct and incorrect, regardless of where you are.
- folmar 5y agoMy 10 year old navigation device (WindowsCE-based) has no wifi nor celluar and lane specific navigation works fine. Also having lane specific navigation is not essential.
- tentacleuno 5y agoCould you share more information about your device? What is it?
- rpdillon 5y agoMaps routinely tells me to "use the right two lanes to exit", but it doesn't show any awareness of where I am. It says the same thing whether I'm in the left lane or the exit lanes. Are others getting directions like "merge two lanes to the right to exit"?
- joquarky 5y agoSimilarly, I wish Maps would tell me the best lane to be in right now so that I have the minimum frustration with being in the proper lane for the next step.
- OneLeggedCat 5y ago> Google (and Apple) maps provide lane specific navigation directions, which are really only possible with assisted GPS. lol wtf. Source?
- throwawayboise 5y agoIs nobody capable of looking out the window at the street signs that tell you which lane you need to be in to turn right?
- spacexsucks 5y agoThis is google apologetic bs.
- kortilla 5y agoThis reason is complete nonsense. Google tells you that you need to be in the right lane for a turn regardless of which lane you are actually in.
- HNSucksAss 5y ago
- Beldin 5y ago> But it is essential. description of feature non-essential to navigation Sure. And stand-alone GPS navigation devices also don't work in cars.
- Xelbair 5y ago>But it is essential. Google (and Apple) maps provide lane specific navigation directions, which are really only possible with assisted GPS. In theory GPS has the accuracy, but remember you are in a big metal box filled with electrical wires. Not to mention other applications like isle specific navigation within stores, which is made possible by bluetooth beacons. As someone who's degree had a course in sattelite rangefinding(both code and phase), this is bullshit. Code GPS measurement should be enough for that. Especially when you already contain road data to which you can snap, and probably have access to accelerometer too which can easily improve accuracy of 'snapping'. You don't need to get precision down to a lane on the road for purpose of navigation, you just need to 'snap' to the right road. and warn user beforehand if they need to take a turn. Just like 'dumb' GPS navigation did prior to smartphone era, while having access to less satellite systems.
- dsl 5y ago> As someone who's degree had a course in sattelite rangefinding So you are well versed in multipath reflection and why it makes unassisted GPS in urban environments with tall buildings close together almost completely unusable? > You don't need to get precision down to a lane on the road for purpose of navigation If you want to build an early 2000s Garmin competitor, sure. But people don't buy $1,500 pocket computers every 18 months to keep doing the same thing.
- Friedduck 5y agoAre you saying every tomtom, garmin, etc used Bluetooth and cell services for navigation all those years? Not to be argumentative but dedicated GPS devices didn’t always have that option. Also I’m curious: it uses triangulation off cell towers to help. I don’t see how Bluetooth helps improve accuracy. Do they map WiFi spots accurately?
- secabeen 5y ago> Do they map WiFi spots accurately? Yes, there are a number of companies that maintain BSSID->Lat/Long Databases. Skyhook is probably the biggest commercial one, and https://www.wigle.net/ https://www.wigle.net/ the biggest open source one.
- _heimdall 5y agoWatch your step on that slipper slope I don't have enough experience with the technical challenges of getting a good signal from a phone's tiny GPS antenna inside a vehicle, but that difficulty shouldn't give a company the right to violate privacy. If hardware is limited, make it better or make the limitation clear to the user and let them decide if they want to give extra data to allow a better experience. We've had good enough navigation in mobile phones for years, why would they suddenly need to make this change now? And why can't I just keep the slightly worse experience if I prefer GPS-only location?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- lr1970 5y ago> But it is essential. Google (and Apple) maps provide lane specific navigation directions, which are really only possible with assisted GPS. In theory GPS has the accuracy, but remember you are in a big metal box filled with electrical wires. Not to mention other applications like isle specific navigation within stores, which is made possible by bluetooth beacons. Tell me exactly how this bluetooth beacons and WiFi APs will help you to determine the lanes? I did several research projects in this area and RF mapping by indoor beacons for navigating outdoors at vehicular speeds is very hard and unreliable. You don't want to get wrong bearing just because an WiFi AP has been moved to another spot. Nice in theory, BS in practice.
- seba_dos1 5y agoWiFi triangulation is absolutely useless when determining which lane are you on. Your whole comment has been derived from false assumptions.
- Brian_K_White 5y ago"But it is essential." My box full of old TomToms and Garmins guffaws at this patently absurd claim.