9 ms·

Zen and the Art of Talking to Conspiracy Theorists

35 points by markandrewj 5y ago

throwaway22032 5y ago
Does anyone actually know a real "5g causes corona" person? I've seen them at marches, that's about it. They didn't strike me as being normal people taken in by misinformation - instead I figured they had some sort of mental issue like schizophrenia or whatever. I think that most people massively overstate the amount of genuine crackpottery that exists and instead just resort to calling people they disagree with or are uncomfortable with conspiracy theorists. As an example, the article lumps in "masks are a control mechanism" with "5g towers cause coronavirus". The UK government explicitly states that their nudge unit believes in the use of masking as a way to remind people that coronavirus is about. It is being used as a control mechanism, that's incontrovertible fact - it's probably also useful for reducing the spread of coronavirus (but perhaps not for total happiness). It's not even a conspiracy because it's out in the open. By contrast the 5g stuff is obviously mental and makes no sense at all.
- erhserhdfd 5y ago
  "The UK government explicitly states that their nudge unit believes in the use of masking as a way to remind people that coronavirus is about." --> I tried searching for this, but I couldn't find where this was stated. Can you share a link?
  - lupire 5y ago
    UK is a special place. The government has historically never entertained the notions that capable of thinking for themselves.
- Hokusai 5y ago
  > Does anyone actually know a real "5g causes corona" person? I've seen them at marches, that's about it. The people that I know about will not express such a strong opinion. But they are not sure about what to believe, and people in their circle may share many conspiracies. So, they are not strong believers but may decide to not vaccinate as they "hear things about the vaccine". > It is being used as a control mechanism I think that you are missing the degree. One thing is to create a reminder that we are in a pandemic, another it's to think that a government in the shadow is using control mechanisms to brainwash the population so they can take over the country. Both are "control mechanisms" if you want that interpretation. But, only the second one is referred in the news because it's a conspiracy theory. So, it fits with the 5G desease thinking.
  - helloworld11 5y ago
    >I think that you are missing the degree. One thing is to create a reminder that we are in a pandemic, another it's to think that a government in the shadow is using control mechanisms to brainwash the population so they can take over the country. Then its an idiotic, bullying and frankly authoritarian "reminder" that should be thoroughly rejected as a piece of government policy. Forcing people to do something you the controller largely believe useless just to emotionally "remind them" that they should submit to a series of control measures is not something worth applauding. It's akin to a parent randomly punishing a child in minor ways for no good reason just to remind them who's in charge. That would be considered abusive. From government it's okay?
  - krylon 5y ago
    An important part of the problem, I think, is that there are plenty of examples of large corporations putting people at risk or harming them, either knowingly or out of negligence, and then lying like a rug about it or trying to cover it up. Think of the tobacco industry denying or downplaying the risks of smoking, knowing full well about the harm it causes. Or the pharma industry pushing opioids on physicians and patients, claiming with a straight face they were not addictive. I'm too lazy right now to go looking, but I'm certain there are plenty more cases like this. Suspecting large corporations or even entire industries of putting profits above the health or lives of lots and lots of people is not really crazy. Suspecting that Covid vaccines are a vector of implanting microchips in people so they can be mind-controlled via 5g is crazy, IMHO. But the line between these is somewhat blurry. And neither corporations nor governments seem to be doing a very good job of dealing with this other than paint people who are hovering in that blurry area in the crazy corner. One may feel morally righteous in doing so, but it is very counterproductive. If we want people to come back to the "sane side", we need to convince them, not pressure or insult them.
    - throwaway22032 5y ago
      Is it blurry? It seems to me like the difference comes about when you move from something which is reasonably plausible or justifiable but can be shown evidentially to be incorrect, versus something that's just well, random. "I don't trust vaccines because pharmaceutical companies have a financial incentive for me to take them/my government is forcing me/etc" are reasonable viewpoints to hold. The reasoning is based on correct information and true premises, it's sensible to be skeptical of something that suddenly comes out of nowhere and is being pushed from all angles. You can even hold that viewpoint and take the vaccine anyway because you figure, sure, they want to push them, but that doesn't mean they're not also actually useful and beneficial for the recipients. I'm struggling to explain here, but basically, the right side of the equation "X is happening" is correct, but the left side "therefore Y" is problematic. "I don't trust vaccines because they have 5g microchips in" is wrong on both sides. They don't have 5g microchips in, we can show that. Even if they had an incentive to do so, they can't. That's the line in my view, whether something is even possible.
- The_rationalist 5y ago
- dTal 5y ago
  >Does anyone actually know a real "5g causes corona" person? I've seen them at marches, that's about it. Social bubbles, man. Go to any place where "new age" people hang out. You'll find them by the dozen. They also - collectively - believe in a veritable smorgasborg of quasi-religious beliefs a la crystal healing. It's important to understand that "belief" doesn't mean the same thing for them as it does for you and I, for their in-group is determined by a staunch refusal to police any notion of objective truth. Maybe they don't all believe 5g causes covid, maybe only 5% of them do, but if someone pipes up with that at a gathering not a single person will challenge them. Instead what will happen is that someone will chime in with their own different, related conspiracy theory / piece of nonsense. Everyone gets to pick and choose which myths resonate best with themselves, and yet collectively they reinforce each other. There are literally millions of these people. In my opinion they're also one charismatic leader away from being a fascist voting bloc.
  - helloworld11 5y ago
    fascist? Many of these types are hard core leftist hippie types, just as if not more liable to vote for deep green or progressive candidates. Please, not every stupidity need be attributed to the right. That's just absurd bias.
    - brnt 5y ago
      Nowhere did parent categorise these people as 'right'. Merely observed that this group is not far away (and IMHO in process of) being coopted, by largely fascist types (at least overhere in Europe).
    - dTal 5y ago
      That's the thing. The political "spectrum" isn't really real. Extremism comes in lots of fun flavors. What the new-age hippie leftist types and the far-right evangelicals have in common, apart from a fairly casual relationship with objective truth and a deep distrust of the state, is that they favor a simplistic, absolutist Lord-of-the-rings-esque good-vs-evil style framing of the world. Fascism and vaguely occult symbolism have a long history of symbiosis. This renders New Age types with their laissez-faire attitude to new memes easy prey for propaganda merchants. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwi... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-55957298 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-55957298 https://www.mironline.ca/beyond-the-qanon-shaman-the-disturbing-relationship-between-new-age-and-far-right-movements/ https://www.mironline.ca/beyond-the-qanon-shaman-the-disturb... https://www.kunskapskonsult.com/eng/_fascism.html https://www.kunskapskonsult.com/eng/_fascism.html https://gen.medium.com/nazi-hippies-when-the-new-age-and-far-right-overlap-d1a6ddcd7be4 https://gen.medium.com/nazi-hippies-when-the-new-age-and-far...
- markandrewj 5y ago
  Part of me has difficulties understanding why wearing a mask has had so much backlash. It is a trivial thing to do, and something people in many countries were already doing pre pandemic. My experience has been that many people who are not in favour of masks think that they are being enforced for reasons other than public safety.
  - bell-cot 5y ago
    Imagine that you were loudly proclaiming yourself to be an Irish Protestant, in a rather rough Catholic neighborhood in Northern Ireland. Or vice versa. No, it's not particularly rational. But when there are distrustful, angry, or hostile groups of humans involved, "rational" describes very little of how things usually go.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - andrewflnr 5y ago
    I haven't fully figured it out, but yes, I think people doubt masking was really a public health measure. My hypothesis about what's going on in people's subconscious, based in part on my own thoughts: your face is a key part of your identity, and pressure or mandate to cover your face is in no small part a demand to cover your identity in the name of conformity. Some people react to this very strongly, if they're inclined to believe "the authorities" want to enforce conformity that way. Add the plain physical discomfort and some flip flopping from the CDC, and you've got a mess.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    Masks in March of 2020 vs 2022 are kind of different. What is "Trivial" to you isn't to everybody... my covid-vaccinated ESL 5 year old has to cover their face & learn from a covid-vaccinated teacher who's face is covered all day. My child's speech, social & emotional learning isn't trivial to me.
    - markandrewj 5y ago
- mrjangles 5y ago
  It reminds me of the day that Twitter, Facebook, and the Apple store all banned Alex Jones on the same day and then denied they were working together to do it. Then they called anyone who had a problem with that a "conspiracy theorist". I mean, that was literally the definition of a conspiracy. It isn't a theory. It was more of a "conspiracy fact".
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    The phrase has become loaded. Widely accepted theories seem to often just get called conspiracies, even if not proven enough to satisfy a court.
  - markandrewj 5y ago
    They didn't deny it. Alex Jones was banned from these platforms for spreading conspiracy rhetoric. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-infowars-idUSKCN1LO04G https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-infowars-idUSKCN1LO... https://www.vox.com/2018/8/6/17655658/alex-jones-facebook-youtube-conspiracy-theories https://www.vox.com/2018/8/6/17655658/alex-jones-facebook-yo...
- brnt 5y ago
  > Does anyone actually know a real "5g causes corona" person? My neighbours. AMA.
  - throwaway22032 5y ago
    Are they mentally well adjusted in other ways? Like, if neither of you bring up coronavirus, can you have a proper conversation with them or are they odd?
    - brnt 5y ago
      Yes we can. Theyre not rigorous thinkers, and theres a gap in education level between us, but about various subjects we've had normal conversations. My take away out of all of this, is that 'social media' is far worse for us than most of us think. It amplifies the worst of the worst disproportionately.
- cafard 5y ago
  I talked to someone last year. I can't say I know him.
- markandrewj 5y ago
  I think it is worth mentioning this article isn't labeling everyone as a conspiracy theorist. "When we talk about grand conspiracy theories, we mean the claim that there exists a secret plot between a large number of powerful people or organizations, usually an entire industry or many large governments, to consistently deceive us in order to reach an often evil goal." In specific the article references QAnon and the ideas disiminated by the group.
daveevad 5y ago
The flat earth conspiracy theory really made me reevaluate how difficult it is to prove just about anything. As best as I can tell, the easiest way for one person to independently verify the earth is not flat is by watching the hull of a boat disappear before the mast. That's not super conclusive in my opinion because it relies on looking at an object over a couple miles away. This realization evaded most of mankind 600 years ago, so I'd argue it's not overwhelmingly obvious. Similarly, the curvature of the earth isn't observable from a commercial airline flight's standard altitude and window construction. This is all to say that people refuse to believe things that they cannot personally verify. For the record, I believe the earth is an oblong spheroid.
- hotpotamus 5y ago
  You can see the same effect on land with a tower and an open plain. Also you can observe the shadow the Earth casts on the moon during a lunar eclipse. It's actually been known since antiquity that the earth is round, though I don't know if most of mankind knew that or if they would have cared. If you're referring to Columbus with the 600 years ago statement, he actually did some dodgy math to say the Earth was much smaller around than others thought which is why he thought he had a shortcut to India. He would have perished had he not had the good luck to run into a whole other continent that just happened to be in the way. To me the craziest aspect of all of that is that somehow we still refer to Native Americans (somewhat pejoratively) as Indians based on a half millennia old mistake.
  - daveevad 5y ago
    > If you're referring to Columbus with the 600 years ago statement Indeed I was but not necessarily him specifically, but the average Javascript engineer at the time. I was just now reading about Eratosthenes[0], to check my priors because I had been taught some people had speculated it way earlier. The article claims: > By around 500 B.C., most ancient Greeks believed that Earth was round, not flat That surprised me. But, here I'm stuck thinking how difficult is me to verify that claim. I'd probably need a few years of Classics and then access artifacts that are one thousand years old. I can totally understand how earnest skepticism unravels into madness. [0](https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200606/history.cfm https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200606/history.cfm)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
watersb 5y ago
Bumped into a chemtrails evangelist at the local office supply store. Rural US, people believe everything out here. The more sparse the population, the stranger it gets. I don't think this is a new phenomenon; cultists were quite the thing in the early 1990s, essentially before modern web browsers. Although dial-up BBS and Usenet had provided a forum for odd bits for a couple of decades, I'm not aware of a universal search engine that could easily lead people into the Revealed Truth. The 1990s focused the crazy, as gonzo eschatology was not post-Y2K-compliant. If you can tolerate evangelical tent meetings, that's also a vast ecosystem for remarkable creeds.
- smackeyacky 5y ago
  I think the wide availability of the internet actually made things worse, not better. Before the internet, there was always magazines that dealt with these subjects, pamphlets that people hand printed, books (back when bookstores were a thing). You definitely had to go out of your way to find that stuff, but it was always there. A lot of older technology like numbers stations[4] must have fed into a general feeling of unease with governments as well, they could be tuned into with relatively simple equipment but their use was opaque and well protected. The following list is by no means exhaustive but offers a few examples of serious, not serious / parody works. The outright hoaxes meant to spread misinformation seem to be relatively common, easily spread by word of mouth or cheap pamphlets and endemic. Recent-ish but pre-internet dissemination of wild theories that occasionally sucked people in: The Stranglers made an album about men in black[0], "The Illuminatus! Trilogy"[1] covers a few different conspiracies that were apparently influenced by letters to Playboy. The Fortean Times[2] started in the 1970s although it seems not all the writing was meant to be taken seriously. Some people did though. More seriously and much older, The Miscegenation Hoax[3] was an actual conspiracy to discredit Lincoln. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_According_to_the_Meninblack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_According_to_the_Me... (1981) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Illuminatus!_Trilogy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Illuminatus!_Trilogy (1975) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortean_Times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortean_Times (1973) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscegenation_hoax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscegenation_hoax (1864) [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station (1914-)
zackees 5y ago

35 points by markandrewj 5y ago

throwaway22032 5y ago

Does anyone actually know a real "5g causes corona" person? I've seen them at marches, that's about it. They didn't strike me as being normal people taken in by misinformation - instead I figured they had some sort of mental issue like schizophrenia or whatever. I think that most people massively overstate the amount of genuine crackpottery that exists and instead just resort to calling people they disagree with or are uncomfortable with conspiracy theorists. As an example, the article lumps in "masks are a control mechanism" with "5g towers cause coronavirus". The UK government explicitly states that their nudge unit believes in the use of masking as a way to remind people that coronavirus is about. It is being used as a control mechanism, that's incontrovertible fact - it's probably also useful for reducing the spread of coronavirus (but perhaps not for total happiness). It's not even a conspiracy because it's out in the open. By contrast the 5g stuff is obviously mental and makes no sense at all.

erhserhdfd 5y ago
"The UK government explicitly states that their nudge unit believes in the use of masking as a way to remind people that coronavirus is about." --> I tried searching for this, but I couldn't find where this was stated. Can you share a link?
- lupire 5y ago
  UK is a special place. The government has historically never entertained the notions that capable of thinking for themselves.
Hokusai 5y ago
> Does anyone actually know a real "5g causes corona" person? I've seen them at marches, that's about it. The people that I know about will not express such a strong opinion. But they are not sure about what to believe, and people in their circle may share many conspiracies. So, they are not strong believers but may decide to not vaccinate as they "hear things about the vaccine". > It is being used as a control mechanism I think that you are missing the degree. One thing is to create a reminder that we are in a pandemic, another it's to think that a government in the shadow is using control mechanisms to brainwash the population so they can take over the country. Both are "control mechanisms" if you want that interpretation. But, only the second one is referred in the news because it's a conspiracy theory. So, it fits with the 5G desease thinking.
- helloworld11 5y ago
  >I think that you are missing the degree. One thing is to create a reminder that we are in a pandemic, another it's to think that a government in the shadow is using control mechanisms to brainwash the population so they can take over the country. Then its an idiotic, bullying and frankly authoritarian "reminder" that should be thoroughly rejected as a piece of government policy. Forcing people to do something you the controller largely believe useless just to emotionally "remind them" that they should submit to a series of control measures is not something worth applauding. It's akin to a parent randomly punishing a child in minor ways for no good reason just to remind them who's in charge. That would be considered abusive. From government it's okay?
- krylon 5y ago
  An important part of the problem, I think, is that there are plenty of examples of large corporations putting people at risk or harming them, either knowingly or out of negligence, and then lying like a rug about it or trying to cover it up. Think of the tobacco industry denying or downplaying the risks of smoking, knowing full well about the harm it causes. Or the pharma industry pushing opioids on physicians and patients, claiming with a straight face they were not addictive. I'm too lazy right now to go looking, but I'm certain there are plenty more cases like this. Suspecting large corporations or even entire industries of putting profits above the health or lives of lots and lots of people is not really crazy. Suspecting that Covid vaccines are a vector of implanting microchips in people so they can be mind-controlled via 5g is crazy, IMHO. But the line between these is somewhat blurry. And neither corporations nor governments seem to be doing a very good job of dealing with this other than paint people who are hovering in that blurry area in the crazy corner. One may feel morally righteous in doing so, but it is very counterproductive. If we want people to come back to the "sane side", we need to convince them, not pressure or insult them.
  - throwaway22032 5y ago
    Is it blurry? It seems to me like the difference comes about when you move from something which is reasonably plausible or justifiable but can be shown evidentially to be incorrect, versus something that's just well, random. "I don't trust vaccines because pharmaceutical companies have a financial incentive for me to take them/my government is forcing me/etc" are reasonable viewpoints to hold. The reasoning is based on correct information and true premises, it's sensible to be skeptical of something that suddenly comes out of nowhere and is being pushed from all angles. You can even hold that viewpoint and take the vaccine anyway because you figure, sure, they want to push them, but that doesn't mean they're not also actually useful and beneficial for the recipients. I'm struggling to explain here, but basically, the right side of the equation "X is happening" is correct, but the left side "therefore Y" is problematic. "I don't trust vaccines because they have 5g microchips in" is wrong on both sides. They don't have 5g microchips in, we can show that. Even if they had an incentive to do so, they can't. That's the line in my view, whether something is even possible.
The_rationalist 5y ago
dTal 5y ago
>Does anyone actually know a real "5g causes corona" person? I've seen them at marches, that's about it. Social bubbles, man. Go to any place where "new age" people hang out. You'll find them by the dozen. They also - collectively - believe in a veritable smorgasborg of quasi-religious beliefs a la crystal healing. It's important to understand that "belief" doesn't mean the same thing for them as it does for you and I, for their in-group is determined by a staunch refusal to police any notion of objective truth. Maybe they don't all believe 5g causes covid, maybe only 5% of them do, but if someone pipes up with that at a gathering not a single person will challenge them. Instead what will happen is that someone will chime in with their own different, related conspiracy theory / piece of nonsense. Everyone gets to pick and choose which myths resonate best with themselves, and yet collectively they reinforce each other. There are literally millions of these people. In my opinion they're also one charismatic leader away from being a fascist voting bloc.
- helloworld11 5y ago
  fascist? Many of these types are hard core leftist hippie types, just as if not more liable to vote for deep green or progressive candidates. Please, not every stupidity need be attributed to the right. That's just absurd bias.
  - brnt 5y ago
    Nowhere did parent categorise these people as 'right'. Merely observed that this group is not far away (and IMHO in process of) being coopted, by largely fascist types (at least overhere in Europe).
  - dTal 5y ago
    That's the thing. The political "spectrum" isn't really real. Extremism comes in lots of fun flavors. What the new-age hippie leftist types and the far-right evangelicals have in common, apart from a fairly casual relationship with objective truth and a deep distrust of the state, is that they favor a simplistic, absolutist Lord-of-the-rings-esque good-vs-evil style framing of the world. Fascism and vaguely occult symbolism have a long history of symbiosis. This renders New Age types with their laissez-faire attitude to new memes easy prey for propaganda merchants. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwi... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-55957298 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-55957298 https://www.mironline.ca/beyond-the-qanon-shaman-the-disturbing-relationship-between-new-age-and-far-right-movements/ https://www.mironline.ca/beyond-the-qanon-shaman-the-disturb... https://www.kunskapskonsult.com/eng/_fascism.html https://www.kunskapskonsult.com/eng/_fascism.html https://gen.medium.com/nazi-hippies-when-the-new-age-and-far-right-overlap-d1a6ddcd7be4 https://gen.medium.com/nazi-hippies-when-the-new-age-and-far...
markandrewj 5y ago
Part of me has difficulties understanding why wearing a mask has had so much backlash. It is a trivial thing to do, and something people in many countries were already doing pre pandemic. My experience has been that many people who are not in favour of masks think that they are being enforced for reasons other than public safety.
- bell-cot 5y ago
  Imagine that you were loudly proclaiming yourself to be an Irish Protestant, in a rather rough Catholic neighborhood in Northern Ireland. Or vice versa. No, it's not particularly rational. But when there are distrustful, angry, or hostile groups of humans involved, "rational" describes very little of how things usually go.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- andrewflnr 5y ago
  I haven't fully figured it out, but yes, I think people doubt masking was really a public health measure. My hypothesis about what's going on in people's subconscious, based in part on my own thoughts: your face is a key part of your identity, and pressure or mandate to cover your face is in no small part a demand to cover your identity in the name of conformity. Some people react to this very strongly, if they're inclined to believe "the authorities" want to enforce conformity that way. Add the plain physical discomfort and some flip flopping from the CDC, and you've got a mess.
- rkk3 5y ago
  Masks in March of 2020 vs 2022 are kind of different. What is "Trivial" to you isn't to everybody... my covid-vaccinated ESL 5 year old has to cover their face & learn from a covid-vaccinated teacher who's face is covered all day. My child's speech, social & emotional learning isn't trivial to me.
  - markandrewj 5y ago
mrjangles 5y ago
It reminds me of the day that Twitter, Facebook, and the Apple store all banned Alex Jones on the same day and then denied they were working together to do it. Then they called anyone who had a problem with that a "conspiracy theorist". I mean, that was literally the definition of a conspiracy. It isn't a theory. It was more of a "conspiracy fact".
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  The phrase has become loaded. Widely accepted theories seem to often just get called conspiracies, even if not proven enough to satisfy a court.
- markandrewj 5y ago
  They didn't deny it. Alex Jones was banned from these platforms for spreading conspiracy rhetoric. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-infowars-idUSKCN1LO04G https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-infowars-idUSKCN1LO... https://www.vox.com/2018/8/6/17655658/alex-jones-facebook-youtube-conspiracy-theories https://www.vox.com/2018/8/6/17655658/alex-jones-facebook-yo...
brnt 5y ago
> Does anyone actually know a real "5g causes corona" person? My neighbours. AMA.
- throwaway22032 5y ago
  Are they mentally well adjusted in other ways? Like, if neither of you bring up coronavirus, can you have a proper conversation with them or are they odd?
  - brnt 5y ago
    Yes we can. Theyre not rigorous thinkers, and theres a gap in education level between us, but about various subjects we've had normal conversations. My take away out of all of this, is that 'social media' is far worse for us than most of us think. It amplifies the worst of the worst disproportionately.
cafard 5y ago
I talked to someone last year. I can't say I know him.
markandrewj 5y ago
I think it is worth mentioning this article isn't labeling everyone as a conspiracy theorist. "When we talk about grand conspiracy theories, we mean the claim that there exists a secret plot between a large number of powerful people or organizations, usually an entire industry or many large governments, to consistently deceive us in order to reach an often evil goal." In specific the article references QAnon and the ideas disiminated by the group.

daveevad 5y ago

The flat earth conspiracy theory really made me reevaluate how difficult it is to prove just about anything. As best as I can tell, the easiest way for one person to independently verify the earth is not flat is by watching the hull of a boat disappear before the mast. That's not super conclusive in my opinion because it relies on looking at an object over a couple miles away. This realization evaded most of mankind 600 years ago, so I'd argue it's not overwhelmingly obvious. Similarly, the curvature of the earth isn't observable from a commercial airline flight's standard altitude and window construction. This is all to say that people refuse to believe things that they cannot personally verify. For the record, I believe the earth is an oblong spheroid.

hotpotamus 5y ago
You can see the same effect on land with a tower and an open plain. Also you can observe the shadow the Earth casts on the moon during a lunar eclipse. It's actually been known since antiquity that the earth is round, though I don't know if most of mankind knew that or if they would have cared. If you're referring to Columbus with the 600 years ago statement, he actually did some dodgy math to say the Earth was much smaller around than others thought which is why he thought he had a shortcut to India. He would have perished had he not had the good luck to run into a whole other continent that just happened to be in the way. To me the craziest aspect of all of that is that somehow we still refer to Native Americans (somewhat pejoratively) as Indians based on a half millennia old mistake.
- daveevad 5y ago
  > If you're referring to Columbus with the 600 years ago statement Indeed I was but not necessarily him specifically, but the average Javascript engineer at the time. I was just now reading about Eratosthenes[0], to check my priors because I had been taught some people had speculated it way earlier. The article claims: > By around 500 B.C., most ancient Greeks believed that Earth was round, not flat That surprised me. But, here I'm stuck thinking how difficult is me to verify that claim. I'd probably need a few years of Classics and then access artifacts that are one thousand years old. I can totally understand how earnest skepticism unravels into madness. [0](https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200606/history.cfm https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200606/history.cfm)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

watersb 5y ago

Bumped into a chemtrails evangelist at the local office supply store. Rural US, people believe everything out here. The more sparse the population, the stranger it gets. I don't think this is a new phenomenon; cultists were quite the thing in the early 1990s, essentially before modern web browsers. Although dial-up BBS and Usenet had provided a forum for odd bits for a couple of decades, I'm not aware of a universal search engine that could easily lead people into the Revealed Truth. The 1990s focused the crazy, as gonzo eschatology was not post-Y2K-compliant. If you can tolerate evangelical tent meetings, that's also a vast ecosystem for remarkable creeds.

smackeyacky 5y ago
I think the wide availability of the internet actually made things worse, not better. Before the internet, there was always magazines that dealt with these subjects, pamphlets that people hand printed, books (back when bookstores were a thing). You definitely had to go out of your way to find that stuff, but it was always there. A lot of older technology like numbers stations[4] must have fed into a general feeling of unease with governments as well, they could be tuned into with relatively simple equipment but their use was opaque and well protected. The following list is by no means exhaustive but offers a few examples of serious, not serious / parody works. The outright hoaxes meant to spread misinformation seem to be relatively common, easily spread by word of mouth or cheap pamphlets and endemic. Recent-ish but pre-internet dissemination of wild theories that occasionally sucked people in: The Stranglers made an album about men in black[0], "The Illuminatus! Trilogy"[1] covers a few different conspiracies that were apparently influenced by letters to Playboy. The Fortean Times[2] started in the 1970s although it seems not all the writing was meant to be taken seriously. Some people did though. More seriously and much older, The Miscegenation Hoax[3] was an actual conspiracy to discredit Lincoln. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_According_to_the_Meninblack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_According_to_the_Me... (1981) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Illuminatus!_Trilogy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Illuminatus!_Trilogy (1975) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortean_Times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortean_Times (1973) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscegenation_hoax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscegenation_hoax (1864) [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station (1914-)

zackees 5y ago