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It would be amazing if they could also sell repairable household electrical goods like washing machine, dishwasher, etc - in the future. These are plagued by p

It would be amazing if they could also sell repairable household electrical goods like washing machine, dishwasher, etc - in the future. These are plagued by planed obsolescence. I would totally pay for repairable ones even with a premium. Imagine a dishwasher that you can hack and program yourself :D

torginus 5y ago
Why do you think these are not repairable? More often than not, these things use PCBs that have been manufactured for decades, with multiple manufacturers often using the same designs. I've just repaired the power supply of my fridge, but if I wanted to, I could've bought a compressor for it, either new or refurb. Imo the main issue, is that these things are so cheap that replacement is cheaper than repair labor + cost of parts.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  Yes, I was looking at replacing the bathroom air vents that were likely installed when my house was built 50 years ago, and the manufacturer still makes the replacement motor and fan assembly for the one I got. Replacing these two parts costs about 50% more than buying a brand new one at home depot, but the fact that these lasted 50 years before needing replacement has convinced me to spend the extra money.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  There are lots of reasons they aren't repairable. Lack of documentation and debug access is probably the biggest one. My washing machine died, and it looked like some components on the PCB blew. I bought a replacement for around £50 (already a crazy move) but sadly it didn't work. Not really anywhere you can go from there unless you're a professional washing machine repair man. My fridge also had some kind of fault with the drainage tube (kept freezing up) but there's simply no way to access it. The back panel is not removable. > PCBs that have been manufactured for decades ... same designs. Absolutely not the case. Go and look up any washing machine control board. They're different for almost every model. Washing machines & fridges may be better; I've never had to take one apart. The only good solution to this problem I've come up with is requiring manufacturers to dispose of unwanted appliances for free. That way they have at least some incentive to make them last for a long time and be easily recyclable / repairable.
  - torginus 5y ago
    I'm not an expert on washing machine-ology, so sorry if I sound like a smartass, but a quick google search confirmed my suspicions - lower end washing machines tend to use the same PCBs, a telltale sign being that the controls/displays tend to be in the same place. To be honest, even if you can't find a PCB replacement, a faulty PCB can be fixed by inspecting the components and/or replacing them. Usually it costs only a couple of dollars and an hour of soldering time, less if you are good at it. Microcontrollers obviously are not as easy, but as luck would have it, my old (early 2000s) machine doesn't even have one - it is driven by those rotary encoder dial thingies that move in a circle and open/close various traces to begin/end program steps.
    - pbronez 5y ago
      > a faulty PCB can be fixed by inspecting the components and/or replacing them. Usually it costs only a couple of dollars and an hour of soldering time, less if you are good at it. That's a pretty steep DIY requirement. Wonder how robust the market is for these kinds of repair skills. Hard to know when you have a problem like this, who to call about it, and how much it'll cost to fix.
      - torginus 5y ago
        I mean yeah. But hunting down a skilled repairman as you said, or browsing for a new machine that fits in the exact same place as the old one, and then wrestling with that hulking beast is no easy task either.
    - IshKebab 5y ago
      > even if you can't find a PCB replacement, a faulty PCB can be fixed by inspecting the components and/or replacing them Yeah right. Maybe if you're lucky or it's all low power stuff but circuits aren't generally designed to isolate failures. If one thing fails it will often cause other components to fail invisibly. And yes I have tried it. The main transistor on an amplifier I had blew. Replaced it. Still doesn't work.
- chana_masala 5y ago
  Well, repairable is a spectrum and for someone inexperienced it sounds quite daunting to repair their fridge's power supply. However the repairability that e.g. a Framework laptop has (swapping out new parts) is much simpler and requires little expertise.
  - torginus 5y ago
    I feel like the Framework doesn't rate very highly on that spectrum. It seems like it's motherboard is replaceable as a single unit, just like every other laptop. For example, if you watch Louis Rossmann's videos, you'll see that a typical repair he does is replacing the power driver IC for the display on MacBooks, which would be a motherboard replacement if done by Apple themselves. On the framework, I don't see why it would be less effort.
frosted-flakes 5y ago
The dishwashers I've seen have been super repairable. I recently fixed my parent's Whirlpool because the circulation pump had an intermittent fault. Once I diagnosed the problem, removing it took a single screw, and a new pump was $120 from a local appliance parts store. Diagnosis was by far the hardest part, but only because I had no idea how a dishwasher even worked. The actual repair was straightforward.
- kelvie 5y ago
  Wow that's quite a contrast with my Miele -- the pump broke (after 5 years of basically 2x daily use), and apparently it would have cost $600 for the pump, and $300 for the labour, so they just upsold us a new dishwasher (which only costs $1200 for the entry model, which is what this was), in which case they'd waive the labour charge.
js2 5y ago
I have a double-oven and double dish-drawers from Fisher & Paykel that I purchased in 2004 that I can still source parts for. I was able to source parts for my 2004 Whirlpool french-door fridge until the sealed system finally died two years ago. That required a new fridge, sadly. We replaced our washing machine and dryer a couple years ago, but that was only to upgrade to HE models. I could have repaired the circa 2000 washing machine. Not sure if the new HE models will be as easy to repair.
phlipski 5y ago
https://www.fixyourboard.com/ https://www.fixyourboard.com/ These guys have built a nice little business fixing appliance pcb's. Most household appliances are fairly repairable given the time/patience. The issue becomes the cost/benefit. I have a kitchenaid dishwasher that is about 7 years old now. About 3 years ago the heater control element broke and it cost me about ~$250 to fix. It would have cost a repairman ~$350. The dishwasher itself only cost $500. So if it breaks again I'm not sure I'll so readily try and fix it...
gnyman 5y ago
There are a few companies who are focusing on sustainability/repairabilty, you just have to look (sometimes very hard) and then take the risk that the company won't be in business in 5 years. One example I came across recently after hearing how hard Dyson vacuums are to repair is Lupe https://lupetechnology.com/ https://lupetechnology.com/ "Someone" should make a list of these companies, or maybe there is already some site or place which focuses on quality-repairability-longetivity?
- VTimofeenko 5y ago
  There is a community on Reddit called "BuyItForLife"[1] with such focus. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/

torginus 5y ago

Why do you think these are not repairable? More often than not, these things use PCBs that have been manufactured for decades, with multiple manufacturers often using the same designs. I've just repaired the power supply of my fridge, but if I wanted to, I could've bought a compressor for it, either new or refurb. Imo the main issue, is that these things are so cheap that replacement is cheaper than repair labor + cost of parts.

jazzyjackson 5y ago
Yes, I was looking at replacing the bathroom air vents that were likely installed when my house was built 50 years ago, and the manufacturer still makes the replacement motor and fan assembly for the one I got. Replacing these two parts costs about 50% more than buying a brand new one at home depot, but the fact that these lasted 50 years before needing replacement has convinced me to spend the extra money.
IshKebab 5y ago
There are lots of reasons they aren't repairable. Lack of documentation and debug access is probably the biggest one. My washing machine died, and it looked like some components on the PCB blew. I bought a replacement for around £50 (already a crazy move) but sadly it didn't work. Not really anywhere you can go from there unless you're a professional washing machine repair man. My fridge also had some kind of fault with the drainage tube (kept freezing up) but there's simply no way to access it. The back panel is not removable. > PCBs that have been manufactured for decades ... same designs. Absolutely not the case. Go and look up any washing machine control board. They're different for almost every model. Washing machines & fridges may be better; I've never had to take one apart. The only good solution to this problem I've come up with is requiring manufacturers to dispose of unwanted appliances for free. That way they have at least some incentive to make them last for a long time and be easily recyclable / repairable.
- torginus 5y ago
  I'm not an expert on washing machine-ology, so sorry if I sound like a smartass, but a quick google search confirmed my suspicions - lower end washing machines tend to use the same PCBs, a telltale sign being that the controls/displays tend to be in the same place. To be honest, even if you can't find a PCB replacement, a faulty PCB can be fixed by inspecting the components and/or replacing them. Usually it costs only a couple of dollars and an hour of soldering time, less if you are good at it. Microcontrollers obviously are not as easy, but as luck would have it, my old (early 2000s) machine doesn't even have one - it is driven by those rotary encoder dial thingies that move in a circle and open/close various traces to begin/end program steps.
  - pbronez 5y ago
    > a faulty PCB can be fixed by inspecting the components and/or replacing them. Usually it costs only a couple of dollars and an hour of soldering time, less if you are good at it. That's a pretty steep DIY requirement. Wonder how robust the market is for these kinds of repair skills. Hard to know when you have a problem like this, who to call about it, and how much it'll cost to fix.
    - torginus 5y ago
      I mean yeah. But hunting down a skilled repairman as you said, or browsing for a new machine that fits in the exact same place as the old one, and then wrestling with that hulking beast is no easy task either.
  - IshKebab 5y ago
    > even if you can't find a PCB replacement, a faulty PCB can be fixed by inspecting the components and/or replacing them Yeah right. Maybe if you're lucky or it's all low power stuff but circuits aren't generally designed to isolate failures. If one thing fails it will often cause other components to fail invisibly. And yes I have tried it. The main transistor on an amplifier I had blew. Replaced it. Still doesn't work.
chana_masala 5y ago
Well, repairable is a spectrum and for someone inexperienced it sounds quite daunting to repair their fridge's power supply. However the repairability that e.g. a Framework laptop has (swapping out new parts) is much simpler and requires little expertise.
- torginus 5y ago
  I feel like the Framework doesn't rate very highly on that spectrum. It seems like it's motherboard is replaceable as a single unit, just like every other laptop. For example, if you watch Louis Rossmann's videos, you'll see that a typical repair he does is replacing the power driver IC for the display on MacBooks, which would be a motherboard replacement if done by Apple themselves. On the framework, I don't see why it would be less effort.

frosted-flakes 5y ago

The dishwashers I've seen have been super repairable. I recently fixed my parent's Whirlpool because the circulation pump had an intermittent fault. Once I diagnosed the problem, removing it took a single screw, and a new pump was $120 from a local appliance parts store. Diagnosis was by far the hardest part, but only because I had no idea how a dishwasher even worked. The actual repair was straightforward.

kelvie 5y ago
Wow that's quite a contrast with my Miele -- the pump broke (after 5 years of basically 2x daily use), and apparently it would have cost $600 for the pump, and $300 for the labour, so they just upsold us a new dishwasher (which only costs $1200 for the entry model, which is what this was), in which case they'd waive the labour charge.

js2 5y ago

I have a double-oven and double dish-drawers from Fisher & Paykel that I purchased in 2004 that I can still source parts for. I was able to source parts for my 2004 Whirlpool french-door fridge until the sealed system finally died two years ago. That required a new fridge, sadly. We replaced our washing machine and dryer a couple years ago, but that was only to upgrade to HE models. I could have repaired the circa 2000 washing machine. Not sure if the new HE models will be as easy to repair.

phlipski 5y ago

https://www.fixyourboard.com/ https://www.fixyourboard.com/ These guys have built a nice little business fixing appliance pcb's. Most household appliances are fairly repairable given the time/patience. The issue becomes the cost/benefit. I have a kitchenaid dishwasher that is about 7 years old now. About 3 years ago the heater control element broke and it cost me about ~$250 to fix. It would have cost a repairman ~$350. The dishwasher itself only cost $500. So if it breaks again I'm not sure I'll so readily try and fix it...

gnyman 5y ago

There are a few companies who are focusing on sustainability/repairabilty, you just have to look (sometimes very hard) and then take the risk that the company won't be in business in 5 years. One example I came across recently after hearing how hard Dyson vacuums are to repair is Lupe https://lupetechnology.com/ https://lupetechnology.com/ "Someone" should make a list of these companies, or maybe there is already some site or place which focuses on quality-repairability-longetivity?

VTimofeenko 5y ago
There is a community on Reddit called "BuyItForLife"[1] with such focus. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/