6 ms·

Illegal isn't binary - just look at speed limits. Everyone speeds at least a little, and FSD/AP had to be allowed to speed to be safe

gjsman-1000 5y ago
Except that actually is legal. Speeding to pass someone is legal in most states, as is speeding in certain situations. Whereas, a rolling stop, that's not legal (as far as I know) anywhere. EDIT: I am incorrect with the above statement. I apparently live in one of 4 states where you can exceed the speed limit by up to 10mph while passing.
- cmurf 5y ago
  It is not legal to speed to pass in most states. I've only found Wyoming, Idaho, Minnesota and Washington have such a law on the books, up to 10mph over the posted speed limit. For sure in Colorado it's not legal to exceed the speed limit to pass. But it is illegal to drive below the speed limit while in the passing lane on a highway with a speed limit 65 mph or higher. There's exceptions for safety and congestion, but otherwise the left lane is considered a passing lane. If you're not passing, you're not supposed to be in that lane.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  It is? That is a surprise. In germany and most countries I drove, it was definitely illegal. Of course, it is common and it makes sense, but the law is that the speed limit is absolute.
- zamadatix 5y ago
  Only a couple of states have laws allow speeding to pass and the vast majority of states have an absolute speed limit rule disallowing speeding in any situation. A handful of states won't give you points due to a speeding ticket <6 mph though. Of course these are the laws, not the practice, which is what I think GP was trying to say. http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/laws.html http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/laws.html
  - mrtranscendence 5y ago
    For what it's worth, in Ohio I've never been stopped by a cop for going 5 miles above the speed limit on or off the interstate, despite doing so in the presence of cops many times. I got my only ticket for going 15 miles over, though.
    - zamadatix 5y ago
      I've gotten a ticket on US 24 (going Fort Wayne to Toledo) for doing 69 in a 65. I've went through there probably nearing a hundred times by then (both family and work out that way) but only been pulled over for it that once. Ever since One of two tickets I've ever gotten, the other was also in Ohio but that one was much more obvious - I missed the speed change on a normal road when I was younger and was doing 45 in a 35. Cop knocked that one down quite a bit though, can't remember what actually got put on the ticket. Of all of the places I've been Chicago was probably the worst at speeding, especially in the dead of night when the roads are "too" open. Recently they got a bit stricter with the speed cameras though https://www.illinoispolicy.org/chicagos-speed-cameras-ticket-8x-faster-after-limit-drops-to-6-mph/ https://www.illinoispolicy.org/chicagos-speed-cameras-ticket...
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  I could have sworn rolling stops were legal in Arizona...maybe that was a couple of decades ago?
ctdonath 5y ago
Illegal is binary. Enforcement is what's squishy, because liability normally doesn't address deep pockets.
- nomel 5y ago
  I think one could claim that illegal and enforcement or so closely tied together that they can't be separated in a meaningful way.
  - ctdonath 5y ago
    That's...preposterous. There are a great many illegal acts that are so rarely enforced that the act is normalized, with enforcement surprising the culprits - speeding and rolling stops being the primary examples. Such are normalized because individual enforcement is practically impossible; it's when the behavior gets codified by a business as/in a product that gov't has a chance to crack down on it.
eldaisfish 5y ago
>Illegal isn't binary I would strongly discourage you from trying that line of argument with the cops when you're pulled over for speeding. I'm certain that a court of law with decent standards does not interpret speeding "at least a little" as anything except a binary.
- caconym_ 5y ago
  The "argument" is tried against cops when you pass them while driving faster than the speed limit. In the vast majority of cases, if you're going less than 10 over, they will ignore you. A thing is not legal just because law enforcement lets you get away with it, but I don't think this is a good example. It's silly to have this conversation without at least acknowledging the way driver behavior expands into "grey areas" and gaps in enforcement, and I don't think it's trivially obvious that "self driving" cars should rigidly follow the letter of the law even if that means they'll be the only cars on the road doing so.
Xylakant 5y ago
Why does the autopilot need to speed to be safe? When does “speeding to be safe” become “unsafe speeding”? 10 miles faster than the the one that you’re trying to overtake? What if they’re speeding by 10 already? Why is the speed limit not 10 higher than it is, if that’s the actual safe speed? How can Tesla unilaterally decide that exceeding the speed is perfectly good and safe?
- adoxyz 5y ago
  Nobody is saying autopilot "needs" to speed to be safe at all times. But it needs the ability to be able to go faster than the posted speed limit. I.e if the speed limit is 45mph, going 47mph shouldn't be a problem that the car freaks out over. For a while, on city streets if you were using Autopilot you'd be able to go up to 5mph over the posted limit without issue. I think in the FSD Beta, you can go more.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    Can you describe the ruleset that would apply when it’s ok to speed? So that’s applicable to the software of thousands of cars?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - adoxyz 5y ago
      The car already has a ruleset for when to not obey speed limits. If you're on the highway and your lane is going 65mph but the other lanes are moving very slowly, the car will slow down accordingly. Similarly, this could be implemented for the inverse to an extent. And again, I don't think the car should speed by default, but a car going 2-3mph over the posted limit should be acceptable rather than an error state because the world is not black and white.
- Retric 5y ago
  Because people passing you is very slightly more dangerous than people following you. It’s not a big deal most of the time, but when everyone passes you across thousands of hours it adds up to a significant risk.
throwaway894345 5y ago
With respect to speed limits (and not stop signs, so this is explicitly a bit of a digression), it's also worth noting that sometimes you have to choose between "safe" and "legal" since most municipalities set speed limits which are not safe (the safest speed being the speed at which traffic naturally flows). So should a self-driving car (or human, for that matter) drive safely or legally?
onion2k 5y ago
Illegal isn't binary - just look at speed limits. Everyone speeds at least a little, and FSD/AP had to be allowed to speed to be safe. Illegal is binary for most driving laws (especially 'do what this sign says' rules), but some things fall into an ambiguous category of illegal-but-rarely-enforced. The problem is that computers don't do well with ambiguous rules. I strongly suspect that when most cars are using FSD the rule of being allow to drive a little over the speed limit will be removed, and cars will have to stick to the limits. Hopefully the limits will be raised.

gjsman-1000 5y ago

Except that actually is legal. Speeding to pass someone is legal in most states, as is speeding in certain situations. Whereas, a rolling stop, that's not legal (as far as I know) anywhere. EDIT: I am incorrect with the above statement. I apparently live in one of 4 states where you can exceed the speed limit by up to 10mph while passing.

cmurf 5y ago
It is not legal to speed to pass in most states. I've only found Wyoming, Idaho, Minnesota and Washington have such a law on the books, up to 10mph over the posted speed limit. For sure in Colorado it's not legal to exceed the speed limit to pass. But it is illegal to drive below the speed limit while in the passing lane on a highway with a speed limit 65 mph or higher. There's exceptions for safety and congestion, but otherwise the left lane is considered a passing lane. If you're not passing, you're not supposed to be in that lane.
hutzlibu 5y ago
It is? That is a surprise. In germany and most countries I drove, it was definitely illegal. Of course, it is common and it makes sense, but the law is that the speed limit is absolute.
zamadatix 5y ago
Only a couple of states have laws allow speeding to pass and the vast majority of states have an absolute speed limit rule disallowing speeding in any situation. A handful of states won't give you points due to a speeding ticket <6 mph though. Of course these are the laws, not the practice, which is what I think GP was trying to say. http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/laws.html http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/laws.html
- mrtranscendence 5y ago
  For what it's worth, in Ohio I've never been stopped by a cop for going 5 miles above the speed limit on or off the interstate, despite doing so in the presence of cops many times. I got my only ticket for going 15 miles over, though.
  - zamadatix 5y ago
    I've gotten a ticket on US 24 (going Fort Wayne to Toledo) for doing 69 in a 65. I've went through there probably nearing a hundred times by then (both family and work out that way) but only been pulled over for it that once. Ever since One of two tickets I've ever gotten, the other was also in Ohio but that one was much more obvious - I missed the speed change on a normal road when I was younger and was doing 45 in a 35. Cop knocked that one down quite a bit though, can't remember what actually got put on the ticket. Of all of the places I've been Chicago was probably the worst at speeding, especially in the dead of night when the roads are "too" open. Recently they got a bit stricter with the speed cameras though https://www.illinoispolicy.org/chicagos-speed-cameras-ticket-8x-faster-after-limit-drops-to-6-mph/ https://www.illinoispolicy.org/chicagos-speed-cameras-ticket...
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
I could have sworn rolling stops were legal in Arizona...maybe that was a couple of decades ago?

ctdonath 5y ago

Illegal is binary. Enforcement is what's squishy, because liability normally doesn't address deep pockets.

nomel 5y ago
I think one could claim that illegal and enforcement or so closely tied together that they can't be separated in a meaningful way.
- ctdonath 5y ago
  That's...preposterous. There are a great many illegal acts that are so rarely enforced that the act is normalized, with enforcement surprising the culprits - speeding and rolling stops being the primary examples. Such are normalized because individual enforcement is practically impossible; it's when the behavior gets codified by a business as/in a product that gov't has a chance to crack down on it.

eldaisfish 5y ago

>Illegal isn't binary I would strongly discourage you from trying that line of argument with the cops when you're pulled over for speeding. I'm certain that a court of law with decent standards does not interpret speeding "at least a little" as anything except a binary.

caconym_ 5y ago
The "argument" is tried against cops when you pass them while driving faster than the speed limit. In the vast majority of cases, if you're going less than 10 over, they will ignore you. A thing is not legal just because law enforcement lets you get away with it, but I don't think this is a good example. It's silly to have this conversation without at least acknowledging the way driver behavior expands into "grey areas" and gaps in enforcement, and I don't think it's trivially obvious that "self driving" cars should rigidly follow the letter of the law even if that means they'll be the only cars on the road doing so.

Xylakant 5y ago

Why does the autopilot need to speed to be safe? When does “speeding to be safe” become “unsafe speeding”? 10 miles faster than the the one that you’re trying to overtake? What if they’re speeding by 10 already? Why is the speed limit not 10 higher than it is, if that’s the actual safe speed? How can Tesla unilaterally decide that exceeding the speed is perfectly good and safe?

adoxyz 5y ago
Nobody is saying autopilot "needs" to speed to be safe at all times. But it needs the ability to be able to go faster than the posted speed limit. I.e if the speed limit is 45mph, going 47mph shouldn't be a problem that the car freaks out over. For a while, on city streets if you were using Autopilot you'd be able to go up to 5mph over the posted limit without issue. I think in the FSD Beta, you can go more.
- Xylakant 5y ago
  Can you describe the ruleset that would apply when it’s ok to speed? So that’s applicable to the software of thousands of cars?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - adoxyz 5y ago
    The car already has a ruleset for when to not obey speed limits. If you're on the highway and your lane is going 65mph but the other lanes are moving very slowly, the car will slow down accordingly. Similarly, this could be implemented for the inverse to an extent. And again, I don't think the car should speed by default, but a car going 2-3mph over the posted limit should be acceptable rather than an error state because the world is not black and white.
Retric 5y ago
Because people passing you is very slightly more dangerous than people following you. It’s not a big deal most of the time, but when everyone passes you across thousands of hours it adds up to a significant risk.

throwaway894345 5y ago

With respect to speed limits (and not stop signs, so this is explicitly a bit of a digression), it's also worth noting that sometimes you have to choose between "safe" and "legal" since most municipalities set speed limits which are not safe (the safest speed being the speed at which traffic naturally flows). So should a self-driving car (or human, for that matter) drive safely or legally?

onion2k 5y ago

Illegal isn't binary - just look at speed limits. Everyone speeds at least a little, and FSD/AP had to be allowed to speed to be safe. Illegal is binary for most driving laws (especially 'do what this sign says' rules), but some things fall into an ambiguous category of illegal-but-rarely-enforced. The problem is that computers don't do well with ambiguous rules. I strongly suspect that when most cars are using FSD the rule of being allow to drive a little over the speed limit will be removed, and cars will have to stick to the limits. Hopefully the limits will be raised.