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Even the CDC admits that vaccination has not reduced spread and infections. You're spreading misinformation now. Your graph includes no sources, no raw data, an

by Jtype 5y ago

Even the CDC admits that vaccination has not reduced spread and infections. You're spreading misinformation now. Your graph includes no sources, no raw data, and is open to interpretation. For example, fully vaccinated people are much more fearful of covid and are more likely to self isolate. Fully vaccinated people are more likely to have minimal or no symptoms, so are less likely to be tested, while still being contagious. I watched in December a community that is over 99% vaccinated have an omicron spike which led to 10% of the population test positive in a week. This started a spike which then spread to the outlying areas, and was likely only even discovered because of surveillance testing. If 10% of a fully vaccinated population could become infected within a week, then clearly the vaccines were not reducing spread or infections.

empthought 5y ago
> If 10% of a fully vaccinated population could become infected within a week, then clearly the vaccines were not reducing spread or infections. This is just a fallacy. Even measles vaccines have a breakthrough rate—cases are so low because there is not widespread community transmission. Just because it's not reducing transmission to your taste doesn't mean it's not reducing transmission.
dekhn 5y ago
Does your 10% include false positive tests from people who recovered? I didn't quite realize this but PCR tests often test positive (repeated) for weeks post-infection. Also where are you that's 99% vaccinated?
- empthought 5y ago
  > Also where are you that's 99% vaccinated? Someplace where children are forbidden, I guess.
  - dekhn 5y ago
    It looks like, statistically, each person in Gibraltar has been vaccinated 3 times. So either they are vaxxing children (couldn't find any articles about that), or not including them because they're not eligble (which means saying "99% vaccinated is not correct unless there the population of Gibraltar is 1% or lower).
    - empthought 5y ago
      It looks like, statistically, the number of people crossing into Gibraltar at the border per day is 50% the resident population of Gibraltar.
      - dekhn 5y ago
        Hahahah, I was going to say something abiout "covid vaccine tourism". The combination of comments raises enough doubt about the claims of high vax rates not protecting people that we can simply ignore it. Folks: please stop claiming your data proves something if the observation is better explained by biased samples. In this case, we're talking about a tiny nation that has significant through-traffic, so it's entirely inapplicable to more or less any large nation.
dekhn 5y ago
Directly from the CDC site (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...) "However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes." I interpret that as saying, indirectly, that vaccination protects against infection, but not fully, and leads to better health outcomes in case of infection. I doubt you can explain that with differing behavior ("fully vaxxed people are more likely to self isolate ... less likely to be tested, while still being contagious") I interpret this probabilistically and from what I can see, CDC is saying their data analsysi agrees with that.
mattzito 5y ago
As another poster pointed out, the CDC says nothing of the kind, I believe what you are referring to is statements the CDC has made similar to my original point - that _once infected_ vaccinated people spread as easily as unvaccinated, something I am more than willing to believe. As far as effectiveness against infection, the data is crystal clear: https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1488255436671176704 https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1488255436671176704 There is not actually any evidence supporting your position from any of the research or even any of the major health authorities. All agree that vaccination reduces infection and hence transmission. So it's hard to argue that mandatory vaccination doesn't improve the overall trajectory of the pandemic.
dang 5y ago
Please make your substantive points without swipes. We're trying to avoid flamewar here, which this topic is particularly prone to. (I'm talking about "You're spreading misinformation now," which is a swipe that no one here should be resorting to, regardless of how right they are or feel they are.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by Jtype 5y ago

empthought 5y ago

> If 10% of a fully vaccinated population could become infected within a week, then clearly the vaccines were not reducing spread or infections. This is just a fallacy. Even measles vaccines have a breakthrough rate—cases are so low because there is not widespread community transmission. Just because it's not reducing transmission to your taste doesn't mean it's not reducing transmission.

dekhn 5y ago

Does your 10% include false positive tests from people who recovered? I didn't quite realize this but PCR tests often test positive (repeated) for weeks post-infection. Also where are you that's 99% vaccinated?

empthought 5y ago
> Also where are you that's 99% vaccinated? Someplace where children are forbidden, I guess.
- dekhn 5y ago
  It looks like, statistically, each person in Gibraltar has been vaccinated 3 times. So either they are vaxxing children (couldn't find any articles about that), or not including them because they're not eligble (which means saying "99% vaccinated is not correct unless there the population of Gibraltar is 1% or lower).
  - empthought 5y ago
    It looks like, statistically, the number of people crossing into Gibraltar at the border per day is 50% the resident population of Gibraltar.
    - dekhn 5y ago
      Hahahah, I was going to say something abiout "covid vaccine tourism". The combination of comments raises enough doubt about the claims of high vax rates not protecting people that we can simply ignore it. Folks: please stop claiming your data proves something if the observation is better explained by biased samples. In this case, we're talking about a tiny nation that has significant through-traffic, so it's entirely inapplicable to more or less any large nation.

dekhn 5y ago

Directly from the CDC site (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...) "However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes." I interpret that as saying, indirectly, that vaccination protects against infection, but not fully, and leads to better health outcomes in case of infection. I doubt you can explain that with differing behavior ("fully vaxxed people are more likely to self isolate ... less likely to be tested, while still being contagious") I interpret this probabilistically and from what I can see, CDC is saying their data analsysi agrees with that.

mattzito 5y ago

As another poster pointed out, the CDC says nothing of the kind, I believe what you are referring to is statements the CDC has made similar to my original point - that _once infected_ vaccinated people spread as easily as unvaccinated, something I am more than willing to believe. As far as effectiveness against infection, the data is crystal clear: https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1488255436671176704 https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1488255436671176704 There is not actually any evidence supporting your position from any of the research or even any of the major health authorities. All agree that vaccination reduces infection and hence transmission. So it's hard to argue that mandatory vaccination doesn't improve the overall trajectory of the pandemic.

dang 5y ago

Please make your substantive points without swipes. We're trying to avoid flamewar here, which this topic is particularly prone to. (I'm talking about "You're spreading misinformation now," which is a swipe that no one here should be resorting to, regardless of how right they are or feel they are.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html