3 ms·

Building thousands nuclear plants for every country wouldn't suffice if most of their energy is wasted to mine cryptocurrencies -> make money -> build more mini

Building thousands nuclear plants for every country wouldn't suffice if most of their energy is wasted to mine cryptocurrencies -> make money -> build more mining farms that require more power -> more power plants -> more money, etc. It should be clear now that this endless loop is not going to scale and energy prices are going to soar no matter how many nuclear plants we build, because all available one will be used anyway by people who could still sustain higher energy prices. The problem is not the lack of energy. Actually we'd have plenty if someone didn't waste most of it for just one damn thing that produces nothing of real value in return while slowly killing the planet.

ryan93 5y ago
Crypto uses less than 1% or something. What are you talking about?
- llampx 5y ago
  Its the HN pet peeve.
  - rufusroflpunch 5y ago
    HN is generally so incredibly uninformed on this topic.
- stuaxo 5y ago
  It has a pathetic amount of transactions. If it's adopted to any extent it will need a lot more than that.
  - danuker 5y ago
    As the inflationary BTC miner reward halves every 4 years, the miner income will gradually shift to primarily transaction-fee-based. I suspect this will drive down the available energy budget.
- paganel 5y ago
  If anything, it's the upcoming mass transition to EVs that worries me, suddenly the 80-year-old grandma from some village in the Carpathians will have to compete on the same deregulated energy/power market against a fancy lawyer from Luxembourg who drives his 150-170k Tesla or Porsche.
bitexploder 5y ago
Is this not a little hyperbole? Bitcoin is estimated to use the power of a “small country”. Much of mining happens in China. Surely that is not a primary factor in energy usage right now. It’s still not a sustainable tech IMO, but is that really “the problem”?
- danuker 5y ago
  > Much of mining happens in China. Not since they banned it, resulting in a lot of the hash power moving abroad. Only 20% or so that stays underground. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/18/chinas-underground-bitcoin-miners-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/18/chinas-underground-bitcoin-m...
- squarefoot 5y ago
  > Is this not a little hyperbole? Unfortunately it isn't. Do you trust the Financial Times, Reuters and Forbes? They're not exactly some treehugger fanzine. https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2F8a29b412-348d-4f73-8af4-1f38e69f28cf https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2... (necessary to remove paywall) https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedknutson/2022/01/20/crypto-energy-consumption-enormous-but-it-neednt-be-congressional-panel-hears/?sh=75d0c734abbb https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedknutson/2022/01/20/crypto-en... https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/kosovo-bans-cryptocurrency-mining-save-electricity-2022-01-04/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/kosovo-bans-cryp...
danuker 5y ago
Crypto mining needs cheap energy, and household and nuclear electricity is anything but. If anything, it helps suppliers monetize the load which would otherwise be wasted, like unexpected peaks in solar or wind production. IF it happened that crypto mining drives electricity prices up, the economy would reach a new balance with mining included. In any case, crypto mining pays carbon tax as any other industry. If I get sound money in exchange, I agree to pay the transaction fees, which will in turn offset those expenses.
- Zigurd 5y ago
  There are cryptocurrencies that do not need more power than any other kind of computing because they do not rely on proof-of-work. Proof of work is a waste at any price. Better to use low cost renewable power for synfuels for aviation or other high value applications.
  - danuker 5y ago
    One point of proof-of-work is to allow chain continuity in the event of a network split. You can easily tell which chain has the most work sacrificed, but if a netsplit occurs with a proof-of-stake protocol, it is vulnerable to a Sybil attack hijacking consensus with, say, a botnet.
matkoniecz 5y ago
> if most of their energy is wasted to mine cryptocurrencies This is not ahppening at all, so not sure why you mention completely absurd scenarios.
throw1234651234 5y ago
Try "build nuclear powerplants to meet demand" - Bitcoin stops mining as much as. Ethereum switches to proof of stake. Other coins switch from proof of work too. Crypto energy demands drop. We are left with a bunch of powerplants hanging out providing surplus / super cheap power. Humanity levelled up, whoo.

ryan93 5y ago

Crypto uses less than 1% or something. What are you talking about?

llampx 5y ago
Its the HN pet peeve.
- rufusroflpunch 5y ago
  HN is generally so incredibly uninformed on this topic.
stuaxo 5y ago
It has a pathetic amount of transactions. If it's adopted to any extent it will need a lot more than that.
- danuker 5y ago
  As the inflationary BTC miner reward halves every 4 years, the miner income will gradually shift to primarily transaction-fee-based. I suspect this will drive down the available energy budget.
paganel 5y ago
If anything, it's the upcoming mass transition to EVs that worries me, suddenly the 80-year-old grandma from some village in the Carpathians will have to compete on the same deregulated energy/power market against a fancy lawyer from Luxembourg who drives his 150-170k Tesla or Porsche.

bitexploder 5y ago

Is this not a little hyperbole? Bitcoin is estimated to use the power of a “small country”. Much of mining happens in China. Surely that is not a primary factor in energy usage right now. It’s still not a sustainable tech IMO, but is that really “the problem”?

danuker 5y ago
> Much of mining happens in China. Not since they banned it, resulting in a lot of the hash power moving abroad. Only 20% or so that stays underground. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/18/chinas-underground-bitcoin-miners-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/18/chinas-underground-bitcoin-m...
squarefoot 5y ago
> Is this not a little hyperbole? Unfortunately it isn't. Do you trust the Financial Times, Reuters and Forbes? They're not exactly some treehugger fanzine. https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2F8a29b412-348d-4f73-8af4-1f38e69f28cf https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2... (necessary to remove paywall) https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedknutson/2022/01/20/crypto-energy-consumption-enormous-but-it-neednt-be-congressional-panel-hears/?sh=75d0c734abbb https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedknutson/2022/01/20/crypto-en... https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/kosovo-bans-cryptocurrency-mining-save-electricity-2022-01-04/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/kosovo-bans-cryp...

danuker 5y ago

Crypto mining needs cheap energy, and household and nuclear electricity is anything but. If anything, it helps suppliers monetize the load which would otherwise be wasted, like unexpected peaks in solar or wind production. IF it happened that crypto mining drives electricity prices up, the economy would reach a new balance with mining included. In any case, crypto mining pays carbon tax as any other industry. If I get sound money in exchange, I agree to pay the transaction fees, which will in turn offset those expenses.

Zigurd 5y ago
There are cryptocurrencies that do not need more power than any other kind of computing because they do not rely on proof-of-work. Proof of work is a waste at any price. Better to use low cost renewable power for synfuels for aviation or other high value applications.
- danuker 5y ago
  One point of proof-of-work is to allow chain continuity in the event of a network split. You can easily tell which chain has the most work sacrificed, but if a netsplit occurs with a proof-of-stake protocol, it is vulnerable to a Sybil attack hijacking consensus with, say, a botnet.

matkoniecz 5y ago

> if most of their energy is wasted to mine cryptocurrencies This is not ahppening at all, so not sure why you mention completely absurd scenarios.

throw1234651234 5y ago

Try "build nuclear powerplants to meet demand" - Bitcoin stops mining as much as. Ethereum switches to proof of stake. Other coins switch from proof of work too. Crypto energy demands drop. We are left with a bunch of powerplants hanging out providing surplus / super cheap power. Humanity levelled up, whoo.