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> It corrupts and twists everything it touches into a constant hustle for eyeball-cash This cannot be overstated. Everything today is a battle for eye-balls an

> It corrupts and twists everything it touches into a constant hustle for eyeball-cash This cannot be overstated. Everything today is a battle for eye-balls and ad money. The corruption is insane. You can't even buy appliances designed perform their function well. Instead you can buy cheap junk for less than cogs because they make money selling your data to ad companies instead of making money by making products that are actually good. The concept of "value" for consumers has been completely twisted and I am not looking forward to seeing where this race to the bottom will end up.

the_snooze 5y ago
>The concept of "value" for consumers has been completely twisted and I am not looking forward to seeing where this race to the bottom will end up. For a lot of consumer tech companies, it's less about providing value to consumers and more about extracting value from them. Between vendor lock-in, privacy violations, and arbitrary one-sided changes in service, it's straight out of an abusive partner's playbook.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  A lot of consumer tech companies' entire business model is "growth and engagement" which is basically arbitrage between what the investors/advertisers will pay and what it costs them to produce this "engagement". Any useful output produced by the system is a mere side-effect and the bare minimum necessary for to get the victims to "engage".
bambax 5y ago
The funny part is I remember a time when even on HN the majority defended ads for a myriad of reasons, and one of those reasons was that people actually liked ads and wanted them. This line of reasoning has completely disappeared from the mainstream. I think that's a problem for the ad companies. They have not yet lost the war, but it seems they have lost the argument.
- colordrops 5y ago
  I remember this. "People want personalized information on products they are interested in. How else would they find out about them?" As if people would be at a loss buying a car or breakfast cereal or a pair of shoes without ads.
  - babypuncher 5y ago
    It makes sense in isolated situations, like Netflix recommending content based on previous content you liked on their platform. I think it becomes creepy once that data leaves the domain where I originally generated it.
    - colordrops 5y ago
      Is that really an ad though? A recommendation on the platform itself isn't an ad IMO.
      - pueblito 5y ago
        That’s definitely an ad
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        It is and many get paid for it. You think those top prime picks are most viewed/best rate.. no they are picked by an editor for a variety of reasons some include clauses in deals or money spent/relationship with the studio.
        scarface74 5y ago
        That’s not how Netflix works. Netflix pays a one time fee for content to be in its platform. It’s not a pay per play deal like Spotify.
      - Smoosh 5y ago
        If nothing else it is an ad to coerce you into watching more shows on Netflix.
patrickk 5y ago
> You can't even buy appliances designed perform their function well You can't research good appliances either online, because the SERPs are stuffed with SEO-ed blogs and sometimes industry magazines, monetized with Amazon affiliates or other networks, with titles like "5 best dishwashers in 2022". Unless you know someone in the industry or offline with knowledge you don't know what to buy. This is noticeable in many other consumer goods verticals, e.g. good luck researching decent home gym equipment that is durable and not overpriced with fat margins. There's no adblocker for this problem either. Google is complacent with their fat ad revenue and monopoly on search and doesn't care.
- the_snooze 5y ago
  I feel like "scale" on the Internet has gone completely off the rails and has become just worthless "noise." Sure, anyone can post and sell whatever they want, but you lose all notions of reputation and trust. It all becomes a shouting match among those who can ad-spam and SEO their way to the top. Those shitty fly-by-night randomly-named Chinese brands on Amazon come to mind.
  - wldcordeiro 5y ago
    See also Youtube/Spotify/etc view/listen/impression farms. It really does make it so much noise, you can pretty much guarantee any large scale account is using these too and bot followers because it's an arms race for attention.
- williamdclt 5y ago
  The only solution I found to that is to bypass google completely and directly go search on Reddit, where real humans have human opinions (sometimes HN, too).
  - SamBam 5y ago
    And unfortunately, you're never really sure on Reddit, either. I found I was too willing to put those, what, 5-10 voices telling me to pick a certain brand up on a high pedestal, because they seemed like real people. They didn't sound like advertisers. But, honestly, how hard is it to fake 5-10 accounts to push your product, or buy high-karma accounts? My go-tos are sites like Wirecutter, where it seems like the hit to their reputation would be too high to be blatantly bought-out, even if they'll generally only hawk products that can be bought on Amazon or other sites that give them affiliate money. They're not always perfect, but I trust that they're trying to do what they set out to do.
armchairhacker 5y ago
I have a theory most ads (especially invasive ones) don't actually target most people, not just tech-savvy users but anyone. They target "dumb", very-manipulable people who see these crazy ads and actually spend loads of money on them, out of impulse or whatever reason. I feel cruel saying this but I really think it's true. Just like how most games have microtransactions because a minority of people who will spend an incredible amount of money on them. Most people are caught in the crossfire and ads just annoy them and steer them away from the product, but mass advertising is an effective way to target the minority who ultimately spend enough on the product to offset the cost.
- andai 5y ago
  Most ads I'm seeing lately have been on relatives' computers while using shady movie streaming sites. Most of the ads are deceptive things like, you click on the movie to play it and it opens a popup of a different movie, which then asks you to make a free account (and presumably uses those credentials to try and steal your other accounts). On the other side of the spectrum: using the Instagram app was the first time in my life I felt positive about the ads I was being shown. I was shown ads for microdosing psilocybin (it's legal here) which blew my mind hahah. It's almost like I got through the uncanny valley and into the other side where ads are actually relevant! Pretty weird since I almost never use Facebook. But I use Google, GMail and YouTube all the time ... and yet, the YouTube and Google Ads really suck! (They seem to be based on IP address rather than identity: I keep getting shown stuff that's obviously based on my housemate's browsing.) To be clear there was still the gross undercurrent of "okay, why the hell do they know that?" but it was nice to see it actually working as intended for once.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Targeting potential marks absolutely makes sense and avoids scrutiny from savvy people who might call it out as a scam and potentially blow up the entire operation. This is also why web advertising is so much more dangerous than print advertising - at least with the latter, everyone can see what's being advertised and blow the whistle if necessary.
PaulHoule 5y ago
There are multiple reasons why it is hard to find good gear online. In the case of electronics and photography gear it takes a huge amount of reading between the lines to interpret reviews even assuming the reviews are honest. For instance at the Best Buy website there is a review for a photo printer where the user posted photographs of utterly ruined prints they made on this printer. Well, I've made prints like that too when I put the paper in upside down. That's what happens when you put the wrong side of the paper in. A decade ago the story about Sigma lenses on Canon bodies was that 90% of them were OK but 10% were defective in subtle ways (like the autofocus doesn't quite lock on) Sigma on Sony today seems to be better. When you're reading reviews though you have to guess "did this person get a bad instance of the product or did this person have the wrong expectations for how this was supposed to perform."
58x14 5y ago
Unauthorized Bread is an excellent novella about exactly this. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvbusjDOspQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvbusjDOspQ
allenu 5y ago
You can't even pump gas without having an auto-play video start at the pump after you've started filling up your tank. I know I can choose not to watch the video, but I can't avoid hearing it play as I stand there waiting for my tank to fill up.
deergomoo 5y ago
> Instead you can buy cheap junk for less than cogs because they make money selling your data to ad companies instead of making money by making products that are actually good Oh this heinous shit is not just limited to cheap tat. Samsung will happily sell you their highest end TVs for four figures with unremovable banner ads in the source menu.

the_snooze 5y ago

>The concept of "value" for consumers has been completely twisted and I am not looking forward to seeing where this race to the bottom will end up. For a lot of consumer tech companies, it's less about providing value to consumers and more about extracting value from them. Between vendor lock-in, privacy violations, and arbitrary one-sided changes in service, it's straight out of an abusive partner's playbook.

Nextgrid 5y ago
A lot of consumer tech companies' entire business model is "growth and engagement" which is basically arbitrage between what the investors/advertisers will pay and what it costs them to produce this "engagement". Any useful output produced by the system is a mere side-effect and the bare minimum necessary for to get the victims to "engage".

bambax 5y ago

The funny part is I remember a time when even on HN the majority defended ads for a myriad of reasons, and one of those reasons was that people actually liked ads and wanted them. This line of reasoning has completely disappeared from the mainstream. I think that's a problem for the ad companies. They have not yet lost the war, but it seems they have lost the argument.

colordrops 5y ago
I remember this. "People want personalized information on products they are interested in. How else would they find out about them?" As if people would be at a loss buying a car or breakfast cereal or a pair of shoes without ads.
- babypuncher 5y ago
  It makes sense in isolated situations, like Netflix recommending content based on previous content you liked on their platform. I think it becomes creepy once that data leaves the domain where I originally generated it.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    Is that really an ad though? A recommendation on the platform itself isn't an ad IMO.
    - pueblito 5y ago
      That’s definitely an ad
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      It is and many get paid for it. You think those top prime picks are most viewed/best rate.. no they are picked by an editor for a variety of reasons some include clauses in deals or money spent/relationship with the studio.
      - scarface74 5y ago
        That’s not how Netflix works. Netflix pays a one time fee for content to be in its platform. It’s not a pay per play deal like Spotify.
    - Smoosh 5y ago
      If nothing else it is an ad to coerce you into watching more shows on Netflix.

patrickk 5y ago

> You can't even buy appliances designed perform their function well You can't research good appliances either online, because the SERPs are stuffed with SEO-ed blogs and sometimes industry magazines, monetized with Amazon affiliates or other networks, with titles like "5 best dishwashers in 2022". Unless you know someone in the industry or offline with knowledge you don't know what to buy. This is noticeable in many other consumer goods verticals, e.g. good luck researching decent home gym equipment that is durable and not overpriced with fat margins. There's no adblocker for this problem either. Google is complacent with their fat ad revenue and monopoly on search and doesn't care.

the_snooze 5y ago
I feel like "scale" on the Internet has gone completely off the rails and has become just worthless "noise." Sure, anyone can post and sell whatever they want, but you lose all notions of reputation and trust. It all becomes a shouting match among those who can ad-spam and SEO their way to the top. Those shitty fly-by-night randomly-named Chinese brands on Amazon come to mind.
- wldcordeiro 5y ago
  See also Youtube/Spotify/etc view/listen/impression farms. It really does make it so much noise, you can pretty much guarantee any large scale account is using these too and bot followers because it's an arms race for attention.
williamdclt 5y ago
The only solution I found to that is to bypass google completely and directly go search on Reddit, where real humans have human opinions (sometimes HN, too).
- SamBam 5y ago
  And unfortunately, you're never really sure on Reddit, either. I found I was too willing to put those, what, 5-10 voices telling me to pick a certain brand up on a high pedestal, because they seemed like real people. They didn't sound like advertisers. But, honestly, how hard is it to fake 5-10 accounts to push your product, or buy high-karma accounts? My go-tos are sites like Wirecutter, where it seems like the hit to their reputation would be too high to be blatantly bought-out, even if they'll generally only hawk products that can be bought on Amazon or other sites that give them affiliate money. They're not always perfect, but I trust that they're trying to do what they set out to do.

armchairhacker 5y ago

I have a theory most ads (especially invasive ones) don't actually target most people, not just tech-savvy users but anyone. They target "dumb", very-manipulable people who see these crazy ads and actually spend loads of money on them, out of impulse or whatever reason. I feel cruel saying this but I really think it's true. Just like how most games have microtransactions because a minority of people who will spend an incredible amount of money on them. Most people are caught in the crossfire and ads just annoy them and steer them away from the product, but mass advertising is an effective way to target the minority who ultimately spend enough on the product to offset the cost.

andai 5y ago
Most ads I'm seeing lately have been on relatives' computers while using shady movie streaming sites. Most of the ads are deceptive things like, you click on the movie to play it and it opens a popup of a different movie, which then asks you to make a free account (and presumably uses those credentials to try and steal your other accounts). On the other side of the spectrum: using the Instagram app was the first time in my life I felt positive about the ads I was being shown. I was shown ads for microdosing psilocybin (it's legal here) which blew my mind hahah. It's almost like I got through the uncanny valley and into the other side where ads are actually relevant! Pretty weird since I almost never use Facebook. But I use Google, GMail and YouTube all the time ... and yet, the YouTube and Google Ads really suck! (They seem to be based on IP address rather than identity: I keep getting shown stuff that's obviously based on my housemate's browsing.) To be clear there was still the gross undercurrent of "okay, why the hell do they know that?" but it was nice to see it actually working as intended for once.
Nextgrid 5y ago
Targeting potential marks absolutely makes sense and avoids scrutiny from savvy people who might call it out as a scam and potentially blow up the entire operation. This is also why web advertising is so much more dangerous than print advertising - at least with the latter, everyone can see what's being advertised and blow the whistle if necessary.

PaulHoule 5y ago

There are multiple reasons why it is hard to find good gear online. In the case of electronics and photography gear it takes a huge amount of reading between the lines to interpret reviews even assuming the reviews are honest. For instance at the Best Buy website there is a review for a photo printer where the user posted photographs of utterly ruined prints they made on this printer. Well, I've made prints like that too when I put the paper in upside down. That's what happens when you put the wrong side of the paper in. A decade ago the story about Sigma lenses on Canon bodies was that 90% of them were OK but 10% were defective in subtle ways (like the autofocus doesn't quite lock on) Sigma on Sony today seems to be better. When you're reading reviews though you have to guess "did this person get a bad instance of the product or did this person have the wrong expectations for how this was supposed to perform."

58x14 5y ago

Unauthorized Bread is an excellent novella about exactly this. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvbusjDOspQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvbusjDOspQ

allenu 5y ago

You can't even pump gas without having an auto-play video start at the pump after you've started filling up your tank. I know I can choose not to watch the video, but I can't avoid hearing it play as I stand there waiting for my tank to fill up.

deergomoo 5y ago

> Instead you can buy cheap junk for less than cogs because they make money selling your data to ad companies instead of making money by making products that are actually good Oh this heinous shit is not just limited to cheap tat. Samsung will happily sell you their highest end TVs for four figures with unremovable banner ads in the source menu.