4 ms·

Is there a legal way to demonstrate the legally binding aspect? I mean could you, for example, sign a document with your friend, have them purposefully violate

Is there a legal way to demonstrate the legally binding aspect? I mean could you, for example, sign a document with your friend, have them purposefully violate it, and then take them to court to prove that the courts will back up the document? I am asking because the existing digital signature solutions have the benefit of having proved that they are accepted in court.

coyotespike 5y ago
Check out the FAQ there, helpfully answers these questions. tl;dr yes these are legally valid digital signatures. (former lawyer here and didn't know the answers either!)
- omarhaneef 5y ago
  Yes, before I wrote my comment, I saw in the FAQ that legal signatures are valid in the US. However, I am asking is this particular way of signing considered a valid digital signature in the legal sense. I could get a technical response, but how much more powerful would it be to demonstrate that it already has? As an individual I might risk a project on an unknown signature provider, but I can't imagine saving the money on a "proven" signature.
  - woah 5y ago
    I think you misunderstand the concept of a signature. What matters is that you agreed to something. The signature is just evidence of this agreement.
    - omarhaneef 5y ago
      I accept that I misunderstood the concept, but then you don't need the "signature" at all? Just an email saying "yeah, sounds good. We agree to this." Can we just test that in court? I say this only because I can see -- IAMAL -- that there are many ways around this. "Yes, but we subsequently changed the deal when I emailed you and said 'we have to delay it," and then you said 'that's terrible. ok.'" etc
      - woah 5y ago
        > Just an email saying "yeah, sounds good. We agree to this." That is entirely sufficient to legally demonstrate agreement. An in person conversation is too, but it leaves less evidence. > I say this only because I can see -- IAMAL -- that there are many ways around this. "Yes, but we subsequently changed the deal when I emailed you and said 'we have to delay it," and then you said 'that's terrible. ok.'" etc Yep, the purpose of a signature is to have a method of indicating your agreement on the exact version of the document that is being agreed on.
    - Aeolun 5y ago
      Yes, now my name is in a plaintext file. How do you prove it was me that added my name? With a physical signature you can theoretically compare it to previous signatures using pressure analysis etc, but that’s not a thing for a text string.
      - woah 5y ago
        Again, it's a matter of evidence. I guess the court would have to get to the truth of the matter, and when they did, the side that was lying would go to jail. IANAL but I'm guessing signature forgery disputes are a very small portion of all corporate lawsuits.
mbesto 5y ago
IANAL... > Is there a legal way to demonstrate the legally binding aspect? I wasn't actually aware that a signature is required for something to be legally binding. I thought all contracts are "legally binding" as long as one party agrees to provide something in exchange to another party. If I send an email that says "confirmed, let's move ahead" then this should be as good as a signature, no? AFAIK, someone's signature is basically just an affirmation for a court to say "do you solemnly swear this is your signature?". I could be wrong.
- jll29 5y ago
  IANAL but: That entirely depends on the jurisdiction. Legal software generally isn't portable across countries due to subtleties like this. There are jurisdictions that do not accept any electronic signatures whereas in others an email response saying "go ahead" or even a verbal agreement on the phone (which leaves no permanent record) counts as "the parties have contracted".
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

coyotespike 5y ago

Check out the FAQ there, helpfully answers these questions. tl;dr yes these are legally valid digital signatures. (former lawyer here and didn't know the answers either!)

omarhaneef 5y ago
Yes, before I wrote my comment, I saw in the FAQ that legal signatures are valid in the US. However, I am asking is this particular way of signing considered a valid digital signature in the legal sense. I could get a technical response, but how much more powerful would it be to demonstrate that it already has? As an individual I might risk a project on an unknown signature provider, but I can't imagine saving the money on a "proven" signature.
- woah 5y ago
  I think you misunderstand the concept of a signature. What matters is that you agreed to something. The signature is just evidence of this agreement.
  - omarhaneef 5y ago
    I accept that I misunderstood the concept, but then you don't need the "signature" at all? Just an email saying "yeah, sounds good. We agree to this." Can we just test that in court? I say this only because I can see -- IAMAL -- that there are many ways around this. "Yes, but we subsequently changed the deal when I emailed you and said 'we have to delay it," and then you said 'that's terrible. ok.'" etc
    - woah 5y ago
      > Just an email saying "yeah, sounds good. We agree to this." That is entirely sufficient to legally demonstrate agreement. An in person conversation is too, but it leaves less evidence. > I say this only because I can see -- IAMAL -- that there are many ways around this. "Yes, but we subsequently changed the deal when I emailed you and said 'we have to delay it," and then you said 'that's terrible. ok.'" etc Yep, the purpose of a signature is to have a method of indicating your agreement on the exact version of the document that is being agreed on.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    Yes, now my name is in a plaintext file. How do you prove it was me that added my name? With a physical signature you can theoretically compare it to previous signatures using pressure analysis etc, but that’s not a thing for a text string.
    - woah 5y ago
      Again, it's a matter of evidence. I guess the court would have to get to the truth of the matter, and when they did, the side that was lying would go to jail. IANAL but I'm guessing signature forgery disputes are a very small portion of all corporate lawsuits.

mbesto 5y ago

IANAL... > Is there a legal way to demonstrate the legally binding aspect? I wasn't actually aware that a signature is required for something to be legally binding. I thought all contracts are "legally binding" as long as one party agrees to provide something in exchange to another party. If I send an email that says "confirmed, let's move ahead" then this should be as good as a signature, no? AFAIK, someone's signature is basically just an affirmation for a court to say "do you solemnly swear this is your signature?". I could be wrong.

jll29 5y ago
IANAL but: That entirely depends on the jurisdiction. Legal software generally isn't portable across countries due to subtleties like this. There are jurisdictions that do not accept any electronic signatures whereas in others an email response saying "go ahead" or even a verbal agreement on the phone (which leaves no permanent record) counts as "the parties have contracted".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]