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>> European Teslas use CCS, but obviously that wasn't an option for the first years of the US supercharger built-out, so it seems we're stuck with their proprie

>> European Teslas use CCS, but obviously that wasn't an option for the first years of the US supercharger built-out, so it seems we're stuck with their proprietary connector here. The standard connector for DC chargers in the us is IMHO horrible. The cables are heavy, they have redundant connections - 2 (unused in a fast charger) for AC, 2 for DC. They use an overly complex PLC (powerline communication) interface over signal wires. The whole notion of "charging networks" is stupid too. People end up having a whole bunch of different phone apps so they can use whatever network they are closest to when they need to charge. I'm not sure why investors think there's going to be big money in charging networks. IMHO the end game will be charges at McDonalds along the major highways, so people can eat and poop while their car charges on long trips. The rest of the time people will charge at home. Back to connectors, the Tesla connectors are really nice compared to the standard. But politics defined the standard.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> IMHO the end game will be charges at McDonalds along the major highways, so people can eat and poop while their car charges on long trips Somebody has to manage/monetize those chargers at McDonalds. The "free EV charge while you are at our store" is going away quickly. Hopefully that is an existing charging network, but in the worst case McDonalds will start their own. Hopefully we can get some location/bluetooth based app activation, or maybe just a QR code.
panick21_ 5y ago
One of Tesla biggest mistakes was not to make that charger an open standard. It might have been an industry standard if they had.
- ajross 5y ago
  They did, actually. But the patent grant involved a reciprocity agreement (very much along the lines of what was pioneered by open source outfits like Red Hat in the early 2000's), and the industry took a pass. The Japanese CHAdeMO standard was likewise rejected by western automakers in favor of CCS. Which is not one but two incompatible standards. CCS is just awful. It just is. They literally decided to implement the worst available choice two different ways. But the CHAdeMO example is what gives away the strategy. CHAdeMO was a "real" standard, not a proprietary product, with documents available from real standards organizations publishing it (FWIW: it's better than CCS but not as good as Tesla). But that still wasn't acceptable. Which tells you that the idea that "standards" wasn't ever the requirement. No one wanted to give Nissan a win any more than they did Tesla. Basically: CCS is bad because it was designed to be bad, because no one wanted EVs to succeed and one tactic picked was to make their charging experience a mess.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    > CCS is bad because it was designed to be bad, because no one wanted EVs to succeed Europe has standardized on CCS Type 2 Combo. The European EV market is three times the size of the US EV market: https://www.ev-volumes.com/country/total-world-plug-in-vehicle-volumes/ https://www.ev-volumes.com/country/total-world-plug-in-vehic... Your supposed CCS plug conspiracy seems to have backfired.
    - ajross 5y ago
      European CCS standardization is in most cases enforced by law. That doesn't say that CCS is better, it says that it's what the local auto industry demanded in an attempt to freeze out competition. Again, CHAdeMO would have been the objectively better choice. And even then, it's worth noting that the market leader in Europe is still the company offering an integrated brand-specific charging system. They just have to do it with the inferior connector.
      - clouddrover 5y ago
        > That doesn't say that CCS is better, it says that it's what the local auto industry demanded in an attempt to freeze out competition. No, you have this exactly backwards. Common infrastructure standards are what enable competition. New manufacturers can enter the European EV market without wondering what plug to support. New charging networks can build out knowing that they can support all cars on the same plug. Proprietary plugs freeze out competition by their very nature. > CHAdeMO would have been the objectively better choice. No, CHAdeMO 2.0 had no roadmap to 500 kW whereas CCS has for a long time. CHAdeMO also has no AC charging support and requires two separate inlets for DC and AC. CCS has AC by virtue of its combo design only needing the one combo inlet. CHAdeMO 3.0 has changed the plug design to be a DC and AC combo like CCS, but with control pins in the DC part. > it's worth noting that the market leader in Europe is still the company offering an integrated brand-specific charging system No, Volkswagen is the EV market leader in Europe by quite some margin: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 Volkswagen owns many automotive brands (VW, Audi, Skoda, SEAT, Porsche, etc.) so sales are split across more brands and models: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/group.html https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/group.html
Tagbert 5y ago
The industry, at least in the US, is moving to support for the Plug & Charge standard which will eliminate needing specific accounts with different charging providers. The largest provider, Electrify America, already supports this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

> IMHO the end game will be charges at McDonalds along the major highways, so people can eat and poop while their car charges on long trips Somebody has to manage/monetize those chargers at McDonalds. The "free EV charge while you are at our store" is going away quickly. Hopefully that is an existing charging network, but in the worst case McDonalds will start their own. Hopefully we can get some location/bluetooth based app activation, or maybe just a QR code.

panick21_ 5y ago

One of Tesla biggest mistakes was not to make that charger an open standard. It might have been an industry standard if they had.

ajross 5y ago
They did, actually. But the patent grant involved a reciprocity agreement (very much along the lines of what was pioneered by open source outfits like Red Hat in the early 2000's), and the industry took a pass. The Japanese CHAdeMO standard was likewise rejected by western automakers in favor of CCS. Which is not one but two incompatible standards. CCS is just awful. It just is. They literally decided to implement the worst available choice two different ways. But the CHAdeMO example is what gives away the strategy. CHAdeMO was a "real" standard, not a proprietary product, with documents available from real standards organizations publishing it (FWIW: it's better than CCS but not as good as Tesla). But that still wasn't acceptable. Which tells you that the idea that "standards" wasn't ever the requirement. No one wanted to give Nissan a win any more than they did Tesla. Basically: CCS is bad because it was designed to be bad, because no one wanted EVs to succeed and one tactic picked was to make their charging experience a mess.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > CCS is bad because it was designed to be bad, because no one wanted EVs to succeed Europe has standardized on CCS Type 2 Combo. The European EV market is three times the size of the US EV market: https://www.ev-volumes.com/country/total-world-plug-in-vehicle-volumes/ https://www.ev-volumes.com/country/total-world-plug-in-vehic... Your supposed CCS plug conspiracy seems to have backfired.
  - ajross 5y ago
    European CCS standardization is in most cases enforced by law. That doesn't say that CCS is better, it says that it's what the local auto industry demanded in an attempt to freeze out competition. Again, CHAdeMO would have been the objectively better choice. And even then, it's worth noting that the market leader in Europe is still the company offering an integrated brand-specific charging system. They just have to do it with the inferior connector.
    - clouddrover 5y ago
      > That doesn't say that CCS is better, it says that it's what the local auto industry demanded in an attempt to freeze out competition. No, you have this exactly backwards. Common infrastructure standards are what enable competition. New manufacturers can enter the European EV market without wondering what plug to support. New charging networks can build out knowing that they can support all cars on the same plug. Proprietary plugs freeze out competition by their very nature. > CHAdeMO would have been the objectively better choice. No, CHAdeMO 2.0 had no roadmap to 500 kW whereas CCS has for a long time. CHAdeMO also has no AC charging support and requires two separate inlets for DC and AC. CCS has AC by virtue of its combo design only needing the one combo inlet. CHAdeMO 3.0 has changed the plug design to be a DC and AC combo like CCS, but with control pins in the DC part. > it's worth noting that the market leader in Europe is still the company offering an integrated brand-specific charging system No, Volkswagen is the EV market leader in Europe by quite some margin: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 Volkswagen owns many automotive brands (VW, Audi, Skoda, SEAT, Porsche, etc.) so sales are split across more brands and models: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/group.html https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/group.html

Tagbert 5y ago

The industry, at least in the US, is moving to support for the Plug & Charge standard which will eliminate needing specific accounts with different charging providers. The largest provider, Electrify America, already supports this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118