5 ms·

> The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. Playing devil's advocate, all modern appliances run software to some extent. A modern dishwasher th

by imiric 5y ago

> The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. Playing devil's advocate, all modern appliances run software to some extent. A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex. > If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done? It's not out of the question that the firmware might need to be updated to manage liquids more efficiently, tweak cycle timings, pressure, temperature, etc. It's no different than an EV for which you can install custom firmware to change its behavior.

Aeolun 5y ago
No, but… they don’t? When I buy it, and put dishes in, they either get clean, or they don’t. I don’t need things to change after that. As long as the dishes keep coming out clean all is well in the world.
jancsika 5y ago
> A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex. Show me the evidence that a "complex" auto-dispenser gets dishes cleaner than a mere pre-wash + main wash dispenser. The only argument I could see is that people who use tablets exclusively aren't currently able to use the pre-wash, thus giving them a substandard wash. But then you have to ask-- if the detergent manufacturers have already successfully marketed a tablet of detergent that doesn't conform to the design of the dishwasher and thus degrades the wash quality, what makes you think a firmware update from the manufacturer couldn't, say, improve the energy efficiency while degrading the overall washing quality?
- EricE 5y ago
  Tabs dispense the max does of detergent - whether its required or not. That's only good for the detergent manufacturers who get to maximize their profits overselling everyone on detergent. It's horrible for the environment - manufacturing, distribution and more importantly - wasted detergent that gets flushed down the sewer and drives up the complexity of treating wastewater. Tabs absolutely suck! Is it really that freaking difficult to dump a little powder in a cup? My dad is 87 - the first six years of his life if they wanted water they hauled it from a well, if they wanted hot water they heated it on a stove - after chopping firewood. If they wanted light they lit a kerosene lamp. Fast forward and people are overdosing dishwashers because it's a few seconds faster to throw a tab in. While screeching about global warming. The irony.
EricE 5y ago
"A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex." Auto dispensing can be done without code. My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved. Microcontrollers are becoming more of a curse as more designers start to wedge them in just because they can; not because they are really needed.
- ChrisLomont 5y ago
  >My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved By this same argument, old car engines without microprocessors would function just as efficiently as new ones with microprocessors, yet the evidence is that modern ones are more efficient in just about every way. Microprocessors allow much more sophisticated sensor inputs and tuning of systems, including dishwashers. >designers start to wedge them in just because they can Designers don't wedge in anything adding cost without benefit, otherwise competing cheaper models move consumers to other products.
  - EricE 5y ago
    lol - few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors. Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations. And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.
    - ChrisLomont 5y ago
      >Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations. Red herring. No one claimed all situations except you. >And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly. I didn't claim they're the same. I illustrated, correctly, that a microprocessor allows better analysis of sensor data than oldschool analog systems could. If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used. Claiming designers simply put them in designs solely because they can is more than a bit silly, however. >few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors I don't think you're in tune with electronics designers. I think all of them I know (a dozen+) all design systems with and without MCUs as needed. It's easier to design without, mostly since those are usually quite simple systems. When you can get a MCU for under a dime (and very powerful ones under $1), it's simply stupid to design complex systems with anything other than a MCU. Have you designed, professionally for commercial products, either MCU based or old analog systems?
spookthesunset 5y ago
Outside of Tesla, have you ever gotten a firmware update on an appliance or car that added features or did major UX changes? Even if they could, why would they? They'd rather you buy the latest model that "supports" whatever new feature they have.
- thirdsun 5y ago
  You could say the same thing about pay once, use forever software and yet updating software, adding features and fixing bugs is common and expected. Of course that doesn't mean that there isn't any differentiation between products or held back features but maybe keeping customers happy actually aligns with the goals of the company?

by imiric 5y ago

Aeolun 5y ago

No, but… they don’t? When I buy it, and put dishes in, they either get clean, or they don’t. I don’t need things to change after that. As long as the dishes keep coming out clean all is well in the world.

jancsika 5y ago

> A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex. Show me the evidence that a "complex" auto-dispenser gets dishes cleaner than a mere pre-wash + main wash dispenser. The only argument I could see is that people who use tablets exclusively aren't currently able to use the pre-wash, thus giving them a substandard wash. But then you have to ask-- if the detergent manufacturers have already successfully marketed a tablet of detergent that doesn't conform to the design of the dishwasher and thus degrades the wash quality, what makes you think a firmware update from the manufacturer couldn't, say, improve the energy efficiency while degrading the overall washing quality?

EricE 5y ago
Tabs dispense the max does of detergent - whether its required or not. That's only good for the detergent manufacturers who get to maximize their profits overselling everyone on detergent. It's horrible for the environment - manufacturing, distribution and more importantly - wasted detergent that gets flushed down the sewer and drives up the complexity of treating wastewater. Tabs absolutely suck! Is it really that freaking difficult to dump a little powder in a cup? My dad is 87 - the first six years of his life if they wanted water they hauled it from a well, if they wanted hot water they heated it on a stove - after chopping firewood. If they wanted light they lit a kerosene lamp. Fast forward and people are overdosing dishwashers because it's a few seconds faster to throw a tab in. While screeching about global warming. The irony.

EricE 5y ago

"A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex." Auto dispensing can be done without code. My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved. Microcontrollers are becoming more of a curse as more designers start to wedge them in just because they can; not because they are really needed.

ChrisLomont 5y ago
>My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved By this same argument, old car engines without microprocessors would function just as efficiently as new ones with microprocessors, yet the evidence is that modern ones are more efficient in just about every way. Microprocessors allow much more sophisticated sensor inputs and tuning of systems, including dishwashers. >designers start to wedge them in just because they can Designers don't wedge in anything adding cost without benefit, otherwise competing cheaper models move consumers to other products.
- EricE 5y ago
  lol - few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors. Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations. And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.
  - ChrisLomont 5y ago
    >Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations. Red herring. No one claimed all situations except you. >And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly. I didn't claim they're the same. I illustrated, correctly, that a microprocessor allows better analysis of sensor data than oldschool analog systems could. If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used. Claiming designers simply put them in designs solely because they can is more than a bit silly, however. >few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors I don't think you're in tune with electronics designers. I think all of them I know (a dozen+) all design systems with and without MCUs as needed. It's easier to design without, mostly since those are usually quite simple systems. When you can get a MCU for under a dime (and very powerful ones under $1), it's simply stupid to design complex systems with anything other than a MCU. Have you designed, professionally for commercial products, either MCU based or old analog systems?

spookthesunset 5y ago

Outside of Tesla, have you ever gotten a firmware update on an appliance or car that added features or did major UX changes? Even if they could, why would they? They'd rather you buy the latest model that "supports" whatever new feature they have.

thirdsun 5y ago
You could say the same thing about pay once, use forever software and yet updating software, adding features and fixing bugs is common and expected. Of course that doesn't mean that there isn't any differentiation between products or held back features but maybe keeping customers happy actually aligns with the goals of the company?