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I have never once needed my dishwasher to be operated remotely. Load it and press start. The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. If the dis

I have never once needed my dishwasher to be operated remotely. Load it and press start. The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?

BruiseLee 5y ago
In case of modern appliances, you are not the only customer/user of the product. Other customers are various advertisers that are interested in data about you. The updates provide enhancements for these other customers.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  We should stop calling it the advertising industry and just call it the tracking industry. Advertising just happens to be the most obvious consumer. IMHO, IoT is a clusterfuck because it's preying on users' past goodwill towards computing. Historically, computers have worked "pretty well" (especially in the last couple decades). So users, when looking at a network-enabled fridge, toaster, etc. logically assume "Oh, this will be like my laptop." What's not apparent to them is how good modern computing has gotten (unless they remember the 90s), or that the companies making IoT stuff have no prior experience in software, or that there are effectively no certifications, standards, or laws around IoT quality.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    > We should stop calling it the advertising industry and just call it the tracking industry Tracking is not even the most harmful aspect. Tracking is a requirement for targeted psychological manipulation (AKA advertisement) including voter manipulation like Cambridge Analytica did.
  - EricE 5y ago
    Not all IoT is the same. I only buy into IoT systems that I control and have zero or minimal cloud connections. Started years ago with the original X10 powerline control stuff, but as soon as the ZWave wireless mesh stuff started getting traction switched to that and never looked back. I use HomeSeer which is commercial home automation software - that will talk to just about ANY home automation standard out there. The UI is ugly as hell but its ridiculously versatile and functional. If I were to set up something now I'd just stick to stuff that can work locally with HomeKit and use HomeAssistant as the brain to replace HomeSeer. I already have HomeSeer and it works so no need to replace it, but thankfully there are alternatives like HomeKit that are capable - and free!
  - throwaway2048 5y ago
    Surveillance capitalism is a better term
masklinn 5y ago
> I have never once needed my dishwasher to be operated remotely. Load it and press start. Time-delay is in fact a rather useful feature e.g. 1. I may not want to start the dishwasher at 11 PM, especially if I’m in a condo and will prevent neighbours from sleeping 2. depending on the specifics of the dishwasher & local water, I may want it to finish soon before I come home so I can quickly dry the dishes (e.g. if water is very hard)
- watwut 5y ago
  Time-delay does not require remote control at all.
  - jcelerier 5y ago
    on the other hand I'd rather pull my nails out than input a start time on a washing machine or oven. The UI are always atrocious for this.
    - watwut 5y ago
      It is super easy on all I have seen. There is button which adds either 30min or 1 hour (depending on model) to delay when I press it. That is it, press it until delay is what you want.
      - jcelerier 5y ago
        > press it until delay is what you want. yes and then it accelerates and you go over the time you wanted and you have to wait for a whole 24:00 loop to reach the correct time again
        ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        Is this a real problem? You generally need 1-4 clicks, do you loose count?
        watwut 5y ago
ajoseps 5y ago
this probably doesn't need to be remote, but having a dishwasher start at a certain time e.g. when electricity is cheaper, might be good
- dylan604 5y ago
  My dishwasher from the 1980s had a delay start feature and it's as dumb as a bump on a log that allows for this.
imiric 5y ago
> The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. Playing devil's advocate, all modern appliances run software to some extent. A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex. > If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done? It's not out of the question that the firmware might need to be updated to manage liquids more efficiently, tweak cycle timings, pressure, temperature, etc. It's no different than an EV for which you can install custom firmware to change its behavior.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  No, but… they don’t? When I buy it, and put dishes in, they either get clean, or they don’t. I don’t need things to change after that. As long as the dishes keep coming out clean all is well in the world.
- jancsika 5y ago
  > A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex. Show me the evidence that a "complex" auto-dispenser gets dishes cleaner than a mere pre-wash + main wash dispenser. The only argument I could see is that people who use tablets exclusively aren't currently able to use the pre-wash, thus giving them a substandard wash. But then you have to ask-- if the detergent manufacturers have already successfully marketed a tablet of detergent that doesn't conform to the design of the dishwasher and thus degrades the wash quality, what makes you think a firmware update from the manufacturer couldn't, say, improve the energy efficiency while degrading the overall washing quality?
  - EricE 5y ago
    Tabs dispense the max does of detergent - whether its required or not. That's only good for the detergent manufacturers who get to maximize their profits overselling everyone on detergent. It's horrible for the environment - manufacturing, distribution and more importantly - wasted detergent that gets flushed down the sewer and drives up the complexity of treating wastewater. Tabs absolutely suck! Is it really that freaking difficult to dump a little powder in a cup? My dad is 87 - the first six years of his life if they wanted water they hauled it from a well, if they wanted hot water they heated it on a stove - after chopping firewood. If they wanted light they lit a kerosene lamp. Fast forward and people are overdosing dishwashers because it's a few seconds faster to throw a tab in. While screeching about global warming. The irony.
HotHotLava 5y ago
I don't have a smart dishwasher, but I think an API to display the current salt level and a web UI that has some space to display and comfortable configure the various settings instead of 6 incomprehensible buttons would certainly be things I'd be interested in.
- dylan604 5y ago
  or, you know, you could do what everyone has done up until "smart". check the levels each time you load it.
  - HotHotLava 5y ago
    Yes, that's true for literally every possible innovation in every field - it is possible not to use it.

BruiseLee 5y ago

In case of modern appliances, you are not the only customer/user of the product. Other customers are various advertisers that are interested in data about you. The updates provide enhancements for these other customers.

ethbr0 5y ago
We should stop calling it the advertising industry and just call it the tracking industry. Advertising just happens to be the most obvious consumer. IMHO, IoT is a clusterfuck because it's preying on users' past goodwill towards computing. Historically, computers have worked "pretty well" (especially in the last couple decades). So users, when looking at a network-enabled fridge, toaster, etc. logically assume "Oh, this will be like my laptop." What's not apparent to them is how good modern computing has gotten (unless they remember the 90s), or that the companies making IoT stuff have no prior experience in software, or that there are effectively no certifications, standards, or laws around IoT quality.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  > We should stop calling it the advertising industry and just call it the tracking industry Tracking is not even the most harmful aspect. Tracking is a requirement for targeted psychological manipulation (AKA advertisement) including voter manipulation like Cambridge Analytica did.
- EricE 5y ago
  Not all IoT is the same. I only buy into IoT systems that I control and have zero or minimal cloud connections. Started years ago with the original X10 powerline control stuff, but as soon as the ZWave wireless mesh stuff started getting traction switched to that and never looked back. I use HomeSeer which is commercial home automation software - that will talk to just about ANY home automation standard out there. The UI is ugly as hell but its ridiculously versatile and functional. If I were to set up something now I'd just stick to stuff that can work locally with HomeKit and use HomeAssistant as the brain to replace HomeSeer. I already have HomeSeer and it works so no need to replace it, but thankfully there are alternatives like HomeKit that are capable - and free!
- throwaway2048 5y ago
  Surveillance capitalism is a better term

masklinn 5y ago

> I have never once needed my dishwasher to be operated remotely. Load it and press start. Time-delay is in fact a rather useful feature e.g. 1. I may not want to start the dishwasher at 11 PM, especially if I’m in a condo and will prevent neighbours from sleeping 2. depending on the specifics of the dishwasher & local water, I may want it to finish soon before I come home so I can quickly dry the dishes (e.g. if water is very hard)

watwut 5y ago
Time-delay does not require remote control at all.
- jcelerier 5y ago
  on the other hand I'd rather pull my nails out than input a start time on a washing machine or oven. The UI are always atrocious for this.
  - watwut 5y ago
    It is super easy on all I have seen. There is button which adds either 30min or 1 hour (depending on model) to delay when I press it. That is it, press it until delay is what you want.
    - jcelerier 5y ago
      > press it until delay is what you want. yes and then it accelerates and you go over the time you wanted and you have to wait for a whole 24:00 loop to reach the correct time again
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        Is this a real problem? You generally need 1-4 clicks, do you loose count?
      - watwut 5y ago

ajoseps 5y ago

this probably doesn't need to be remote, but having a dishwasher start at a certain time e.g. when electricity is cheaper, might be good

dylan604 5y ago
My dishwasher from the 1980s had a delay start feature and it's as dumb as a bump on a log that allows for this.

imiric 5y ago

> The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. Playing devil's advocate, all modern appliances run software to some extent. A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex. > If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done? It's not out of the question that the firmware might need to be updated to manage liquids more efficiently, tweak cycle timings, pressure, temperature, etc. It's no different than an EV for which you can install custom firmware to change its behavior.

Aeolun 5y ago
No, but… they don’t? When I buy it, and put dishes in, they either get clean, or they don’t. I don’t need things to change after that. As long as the dishes keep coming out clean all is well in the world.
jancsika 5y ago
> A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex. Show me the evidence that a "complex" auto-dispenser gets dishes cleaner than a mere pre-wash + main wash dispenser. The only argument I could see is that people who use tablets exclusively aren't currently able to use the pre-wash, thus giving them a substandard wash. But then you have to ask-- if the detergent manufacturers have already successfully marketed a tablet of detergent that doesn't conform to the design of the dishwasher and thus degrades the wash quality, what makes you think a firmware update from the manufacturer couldn't, say, improve the energy efficiency while degrading the overall washing quality?
- EricE 5y ago
  Tabs dispense the max does of detergent - whether its required or not. That's only good for the detergent manufacturers who get to maximize their profits overselling everyone on detergent. It's horrible for the environment - manufacturing, distribution and more importantly - wasted detergent that gets flushed down the sewer and drives up the complexity of treating wastewater. Tabs absolutely suck! Is it really that freaking difficult to dump a little powder in a cup? My dad is 87 - the first six years of his life if they wanted water they hauled it from a well, if they wanted hot water they heated it on a stove - after chopping firewood. If they wanted light they lit a kerosene lamp. Fast forward and people are overdosing dishwashers because it's a few seconds faster to throw a tab in. While screeching about global warming. The irony.

HotHotLava 5y ago

I don't have a smart dishwasher, but I think an API to display the current salt level and a web UI that has some space to display and comfortable configure the various settings instead of 6 incomprehensible buttons would certainly be things I'd be interested in.

dylan604 5y ago
or, you know, you could do what everyone has done up until "smart". check the levels each time you load it.
- HotHotLava 5y ago
  Yes, that's true for literally every possible innovation in every field - it is possible not to use it.