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My dad got a smart heater, for my parents holiday home. The idea is that he can check temperature, and prevent frost damage from home. Yesterday he ask: "What h

My dad got a smart heater, for my parents holiday home. The idea is that he can check temperature, and prevent frost damage from home. Yesterday he ask: "What happens it the company that makes the App decides that they don't what to do that anymore, or they go out of business?". Well, then the smart thingy stops being smart.

fsflover 5y ago
This is exactly why Stallman invented free software: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-impor....
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  Ehh... this is more like "people don't want software on their Dishwasher" rather than "people want free software on their dishwasher"
  - stragies 5y ago
    Maybe we are different, but I enjoy comforts like "Schedule run for lower cost nighttime running", "Alert me, when the Finishing liquid is starting to run low, so that HomeAssitant can add it to my shopping list", "Automatically measure some values of my (drinking) water supply, and tell HomeAssistant about them". "Set a status in HomeAssistant, when a run has finished"...
    - dpark 5y ago
      Normal dishwashers solve for this with a button or knob labeled “delay”. Breaking out an app to set the dishwasher to start late songs much less convenient. Occasionally I wish I had more granularity on the delay but never have I wanted an app to do it. I don’t know what I’d do with any of that other stuff. Does your dishwasher actually try to measure water quality? Because that seems like a really poor fit. I wouldn’t trust water quality measurements coming out of my dishwasher anyway. It’s measuring hot water which isn’t what you should be drinking, and I’d give it a 99% chance that the person who crammed those sensors in didn’t do a good job of insulating them from the heat, vibration, etc.
      - stragies 5y ago
        The point of such remote-scheduling is in my view, is that e.g. when HA notices, that the machine has not run in 3 days, but is closed, then it can send a notification to my phone, with Buttons for "Go Now", and one for "Tonight, one hour after last movement detection". And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine. At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and (since it's super-easy with HA) log/graph it over time. Plus detergent and salt levels are nice to know for shopping-list-planning.
        dpark 5y ago
        > when HA notices, that the machine has not run in 3 days, but is closed, then it can send a notification to my phone But why? If I haven’t run it in three days, then I don’t need it to run. The only way this might be useful for me would be if HA could magically realize the dishwasher is full and I forgot to run it, but it’s not going to be able to do that. It can’t tell the difference been “I forgot” and “I don’t want it to run yet” and I absolutely do not want HA sending me a message every time I leave asking if I meant to run the dishwasher. > And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine. Maybe some dishwashers do have internal heaters to reheat the water? Mine definitely is connected to the hot water supply, though. I am not aware of it containing an internal heater. Definitely some dishwashers have a heating element for drying (mine does not) but I don’t think they use those elements for heating the water. Also, does your clothes washing machine actually heat water? That seems pointless when you already have a device intended to provide hot water to the whole house. Mine connects to the hot and cold lines. I’d be annoyed if I bought a washing machine and then realized it had a heater inside instead of using the hot water supply. The extra complexity and failure modes and wasted time to heat the water do not seem to provide any value. > At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and (since it's super-easy with HA) log/graph it over time. Plus detergent and salt levels are nice to know for shopping-list-planning. Personally I don’t want “nice to haves” that requires my devices to be internet connected and have apps etc. The value is way too low for the complexity it adds. I especially don’t trust these device manufacturers to keep these systems running long term. If you find value, though, I’m not saying you shouldn’t be able to buy one of those smart dishwashers.
  - Victerius 5y ago
    I am rabid over futuristic/techno/sci-fi stuff, but I don't think turning everything into a mini computer is the right way forward. By all means, turn our home PCs into supercomputers and our televisions into 3D hologram projectors, but let "dumb" but reliable goods persist. Next they'll start making smart cissors, smart drinking glasses, smart pens...
    - fsflover 5y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30148931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30148931
  - fsflover 5y ago
    Why not to have software on a dishwasher, if it does not misbehave and can be switched off if you wish?
  - radmuzom 5y ago
    He foresaw way back in the 80-90s that corporations are going to put software on their dishwasher anyway irrespective of what people want. If his idealistic goals were to be realized by now, at least they would have full control over it.
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      Sure, but we're talking single-digit percentages of people who ever interface with this stuff directly. We've had full(ish) control over desktop computer operating systems for decades and 2% of people use desktop linux. Google built ChromeOS on linux and started selling laptops loaded with their proprietary services, and it eclipsed desktop linux in a couple years. Unfortunately if his goals came to fruition the vast majority of people would be in the same place. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems like free software is only a small piece of it.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  If I buy a smart heater that connects to some backend using free software and the company shuts off that backend I'm sure as heck not solving that problem by editing the software and reinstalling it to do some new different thing. And I'm a professional software engineer. Free software means that in theory you can modify and maintain the software you run on your machines to your liking (not hardware though, or backends). But this is so incredibly far beyond the capabilities of the enormous majority of people that it might as well not be a thing in the first place.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    If it uses free software, you can reprogram it to connect to your own server (or anyone else's who wants your money). > But this is so incredibly far beyond the capabilities of the enormous majority of people that it might as well not be a thing in the first place. You don't have to be a programmer to benefit from free software. The latter simply removes the monopoly of the software developers and allows alternative developers to work for you if you pay them.
    - UncleMeat 5y ago
      > You don't have to be a programmer to benefit from free software. The latter simply removes the monopoly of the software developers and allows alternative developers to work for you if you pay them. And where is this font of developers writing replacements for abandoned free software? We've had decades of GPL software. The number of people who have actually used this lever is incredibly small.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        > The number of people who have actually used this lever is incredibly small. Where can I go to a shop and buy, e.g., a laptop with Linux? It's practically impossible. I guess it's because the monopolies don't allow anyone to enter the market. In practice, Linux is already better for many use cases.
        5y ago
- feoren 5y ago
  Problem: People are writing bad software with bugs and dark patterns. Solution: Software development should be the only creative profession in the entire world with no legal protection on their work!? It's insane to me. Absolutely insane. Copyright is not immoral. Almost nobody in this thread would be able to make any money as a software engineer if software were not allowed to make money. And yes, I've heard the arguments for how free software could kinda maybe carve out a niche of funding and keep a few passionate people employed for not quite enough money. Spare me. It's like every aerospace engineer deciding that what they're doing is immoral and they should all just be aircraft maintenance techs. It's a completely different, much less creative, and much less satisfying job (for the engineering-minded, anyway). Of course patents are a different story, and basically are immoral under the current system. And there are clear "right to repair" and ownership rights that we also need to fight for. Can we focus on those fights instead of shaming software developers for wanting to make money on the code they write?
  - Vrondi 5y ago
    No, but if something is abandoned by a company, then it should be made open. Your car/dishwasher/washing machine/thermostat/door locks should not stop working because some brilliant small company was bad at the profit side of things and folded. They should not stop working because some large company simply got bored and decided to follow another market trend. This is why user repair-ability/unlocking/jail-breaking of devices should be legally protected.
    - spikej 5y ago
      This even goes for older smart phones. Just because the company needs to turn a profit, doesn't mean I have the means to continually upgrade every 2 years. I love the efforts people put into things like LineageOs.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        Consider a Linux phone (Librem 5 or Pinephone) instead, because those do not rely on proprietary drivers, which still can force you to throw your device away at some point.
stragies 5y ago
That's why you only buy devices after checking, that e.g. HomeAssistant can talk to it without using the vendor dongle/app/site/server?
dpark 5y ago
The real problem is how many of these things are going to just break? Most people probably won’t care if their smart dishwasher stops being smart. They’ll care if it stops being a dishwasher, though.

fsflover 5y ago

This is exactly why Stallman invented free software: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-impor....

micromacrofoot 5y ago
Ehh... this is more like "people don't want software on their Dishwasher" rather than "people want free software on their dishwasher"
- stragies 5y ago
  Maybe we are different, but I enjoy comforts like "Schedule run for lower cost nighttime running", "Alert me, when the Finishing liquid is starting to run low, so that HomeAssitant can add it to my shopping list", "Automatically measure some values of my (drinking) water supply, and tell HomeAssistant about them". "Set a status in HomeAssistant, when a run has finished"...
  - dpark 5y ago
    Normal dishwashers solve for this with a button or knob labeled “delay”. Breaking out an app to set the dishwasher to start late songs much less convenient. Occasionally I wish I had more granularity on the delay but never have I wanted an app to do it. I don’t know what I’d do with any of that other stuff. Does your dishwasher actually try to measure water quality? Because that seems like a really poor fit. I wouldn’t trust water quality measurements coming out of my dishwasher anyway. It’s measuring hot water which isn’t what you should be drinking, and I’d give it a 99% chance that the person who crammed those sensors in didn’t do a good job of insulating them from the heat, vibration, etc.
    - stragies 5y ago
      The point of such remote-scheduling is in my view, is that e.g. when HA notices, that the machine has not run in 3 days, but is closed, then it can send a notification to my phone, with Buttons for "Go Now", and one for "Tonight, one hour after last movement detection". And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine. At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and (since it's super-easy with HA) log/graph it over time. Plus detergent and salt levels are nice to know for shopping-list-planning.
      - dpark 5y ago
        > when HA notices, that the machine has not run in 3 days, but is closed, then it can send a notification to my phone But why? If I haven’t run it in three days, then I don’t need it to run. The only way this might be useful for me would be if HA could magically realize the dishwasher is full and I forgot to run it, but it’s not going to be able to do that. It can’t tell the difference been “I forgot” and “I don’t want it to run yet” and I absolutely do not want HA sending me a message every time I leave asking if I meant to run the dishwasher. > And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine. Maybe some dishwashers do have internal heaters to reheat the water? Mine definitely is connected to the hot water supply, though. I am not aware of it containing an internal heater. Definitely some dishwashers have a heating element for drying (mine does not) but I don’t think they use those elements for heating the water. Also, does your clothes washing machine actually heat water? That seems pointless when you already have a device intended to provide hot water to the whole house. Mine connects to the hot and cold lines. I’d be annoyed if I bought a washing machine and then realized it had a heater inside instead of using the hot water supply. The extra complexity and failure modes and wasted time to heat the water do not seem to provide any value. > At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and (since it's super-easy with HA) log/graph it over time. Plus detergent and salt levels are nice to know for shopping-list-planning. Personally I don’t want “nice to haves” that requires my devices to be internet connected and have apps etc. The value is way too low for the complexity it adds. I especially don’t trust these device manufacturers to keep these systems running long term. If you find value, though, I’m not saying you shouldn’t be able to buy one of those smart dishwashers.
- Victerius 5y ago
  I am rabid over futuristic/techno/sci-fi stuff, but I don't think turning everything into a mini computer is the right way forward. By all means, turn our home PCs into supercomputers and our televisions into 3D hologram projectors, but let "dumb" but reliable goods persist. Next they'll start making smart cissors, smart drinking glasses, smart pens...
  - fsflover 5y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30148931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30148931
- fsflover 5y ago
  Why not to have software on a dishwasher, if it does not misbehave and can be switched off if you wish?
- radmuzom 5y ago
  He foresaw way back in the 80-90s that corporations are going to put software on their dishwasher anyway irrespective of what people want. If his idealistic goals were to be realized by now, at least they would have full control over it.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    Sure, but we're talking single-digit percentages of people who ever interface with this stuff directly. We've had full(ish) control over desktop computer operating systems for decades and 2% of people use desktop linux. Google built ChromeOS on linux and started selling laptops loaded with their proprietary services, and it eclipsed desktop linux in a couple years. Unfortunately if his goals came to fruition the vast majority of people would be in the same place. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems like free software is only a small piece of it.
UncleMeat 5y ago
If I buy a smart heater that connects to some backend using free software and the company shuts off that backend I'm sure as heck not solving that problem by editing the software and reinstalling it to do some new different thing. And I'm a professional software engineer. Free software means that in theory you can modify and maintain the software you run on your machines to your liking (not hardware though, or backends). But this is so incredibly far beyond the capabilities of the enormous majority of people that it might as well not be a thing in the first place.
- fsflover 5y ago
  If it uses free software, you can reprogram it to connect to your own server (or anyone else's who wants your money). > But this is so incredibly far beyond the capabilities of the enormous majority of people that it might as well not be a thing in the first place. You don't have to be a programmer to benefit from free software. The latter simply removes the monopoly of the software developers and allows alternative developers to work for you if you pay them.
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    > You don't have to be a programmer to benefit from free software. The latter simply removes the monopoly of the software developers and allows alternative developers to work for you if you pay them. And where is this font of developers writing replacements for abandoned free software? We've had decades of GPL software. The number of people who have actually used this lever is incredibly small.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      > The number of people who have actually used this lever is incredibly small. Where can I go to a shop and buy, e.g., a laptop with Linux? It's practically impossible. I guess it's because the monopolies don't allow anyone to enter the market. In practice, Linux is already better for many use cases.
      - 5y ago
feoren 5y ago
Problem: People are writing bad software with bugs and dark patterns. Solution: Software development should be the only creative profession in the entire world with no legal protection on their work!? It's insane to me. Absolutely insane. Copyright is not immoral. Almost nobody in this thread would be able to make any money as a software engineer if software were not allowed to make money. And yes, I've heard the arguments for how free software could kinda maybe carve out a niche of funding and keep a few passionate people employed for not quite enough money. Spare me. It's like every aerospace engineer deciding that what they're doing is immoral and they should all just be aircraft maintenance techs. It's a completely different, much less creative, and much less satisfying job (for the engineering-minded, anyway). Of course patents are a different story, and basically are immoral under the current system. And there are clear "right to repair" and ownership rights that we also need to fight for. Can we focus on those fights instead of shaming software developers for wanting to make money on the code they write?
- Vrondi 5y ago
  No, but if something is abandoned by a company, then it should be made open. Your car/dishwasher/washing machine/thermostat/door locks should not stop working because some brilliant small company was bad at the profit side of things and folded. They should not stop working because some large company simply got bored and decided to follow another market trend. This is why user repair-ability/unlocking/jail-breaking of devices should be legally protected.
  - spikej 5y ago
    This even goes for older smart phones. Just because the company needs to turn a profit, doesn't mean I have the means to continually upgrade every 2 years. I love the efforts people put into things like LineageOs.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      Consider a Linux phone (Librem 5 or Pinephone) instead, because those do not rely on proprietary drivers, which still can force you to throw your device away at some point.

stragies 5y ago

That's why you only buy devices after checking, that e.g. HomeAssistant can talk to it without using the vendor dongle/app/site/server?

dpark 5y ago

The real problem is how many of these things are going to just break? Most people probably won’t care if their smart dishwasher stops being smart. They’ll care if it stops being a dishwasher, though.