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"Meanwhile, Minnesota’s Department of Health used a scoring calculator that counted “BIPOC status” as equivalent to being 65 years and older [...]" Based on th

"Meanwhile, Minnesota’s Department of Health used a scoring calculator that counted “BIPOC status” as equivalent to being 65 years and older [...]" Based on this sentence alone it might be hard to tell if the policy is inspired by the far-left or the far-right. Is it about excluding white people from treatment, or proclaiming the superiority of the white race? Is the political spectrum actually a circle? Or could this actually be reasonable in a way that I don't see?

kragen 5y ago
Presumably they were prioritizing treatment for those 65 or older over treatment for younger people, who will almost all get better without treatment, rather than leaving those over 65 to die. Even on the far right I don't think mass killing of retirees is a popular policy. In that context, being categorized as "equivalent to being 65 years and older" would be an advantage, not a disadvantage. I don't think affirmative action is a "far-left" policy in general, but rather a policy that enjoys broad popular support, at least when it comes to things like employment and education rather than immediate lifesaving treatment.
- CheezeIt 5y ago
  It has majority opposition in California.
  - kragen 5y ago
    Yes, but it's still not a far-left fringe idea there.
    - soco 5y ago
      The US-based definition of "far left" is worth a discussion by itself.
- WithinReason 5y ago
  Sure, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment on how it could be interpreted both ways. I would say though that prioritising a 20 year old BIPOC person over a 64 year old would be quite a disadvantage to the older person...
  - kragen 5y ago
    Concur.
- rayiner 5y ago
  If by “affirmative action” you mean racial preferences, then no, it’s extremely unpopular both for employment and education: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/05/08/americans-see-advantages-and-challenges-in-countrys-growing-racial-and-ethnic-diversity/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/05/08/america...; https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americans-say-colleges-should-not-consider-race-or-ethnicity-in-admissions/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americ... A majority of every minority group opposes expressly considering race in hiring and education. The prevalence of these policies is the result of its popularity among the white social liberals who increasingly run the country’s businesses and institutions.
  - kragen 5y ago
    I'm not sure what other meaning of "affirmative action" there is. Those studies claim that 27% and 24% of the surveyed population, respectively, favors affirmative action. I guess that falls short of "broad popular support" as I was saying, but it it's also far from what I think of as "far left", both because if the correlation with leftism were perfect, that's still the top quartile of the population, and because there's more to leftism than affirmative action, so the correlation isn't perfect. Other polls come up with numbers like 62% https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/565628-62-percent-of-americans-favor-affirmative-action-programs https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/565628-62-... and 45% (8 years ago) https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/poll_public_support_for_affirmative_action_at_an_all_time_low https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/poll_public_support_for_af.... I think a big part of what's going on here is that people don't think deeply so they can be easily influenced by how questions are phrased. I agree that minority groups aren't the ones promoting affirmative action, but rather US elites, who are overwhelmingly white. I don't think it's a particularly liberal policy, though it's not something liberalism has defined itself by opposition to, and Millian consequentialist liberalism is a common framework for justifying it; but a lot of the constituency for affirmative action is illiberal "progressives".
    - rayiner 5y ago
      I generally agree with your points above, especially that it’s not a far left idea. It’s a mainstream left idea. But one quibble. “Affirmative action,” as used by Kennedy and Nixon, originally meant the government taking “affirmative action” to eliminate discrimination in government hiring: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/learn-origins-term-affirmative-action-180959531 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/learn-origins-term-af...; see also https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/11478.html https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/execu.... So it wasn’t sufficient not to have officially discriminatory hiring policies, but you had to take affirmative steps to root out discrimination in the hiring process. Even today, affirmative action can refer to measures like broadening the recruiting pipelines. Recruiting at HBCUs might be considered a sort of affirmative action policy. What the polls consistently show is that minorities support “affirmative action” in the abstract, but don’t support using race as an express consideration with respect to individual decisions. I don’t think its fair to say they’re not “thinking deeply” about the question. I think that instead the questions are referring to somewhat different substantive policies, and you’re seeing the result of people who agree with the general ends of “affirmative action” drawing lines between specific means they support and ones they don’t.
- yucky 5y ago
  Affirmative Action is systemic racial discrimination (by definition) and you think that has widespread support? Maybe in "progressive" circles, but I think most people see it for what it is. I think most people rather support the idea of a needs based system, not one that requires a color chart to determine who gets what.
  - kragen 5y ago
    Yes. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30147200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30147200.
    - yucky 5y ago
      I'm confused, your own data says a small minority supports racially discriminatory policies like affirmative action.
      - kragen 5y ago
        The four different polls we found in that thread found that, in the US, 24%, 27%, 45%, or 62% supports affirmative action. None of these is "a small minority", though some do fall short of being "broad popular support".
        yucky 5y ago
        >24%, 27%, 45%, or 62% Seems reliable lol I prefer to ask people if they support racial discrimination. Very few say yes, outside of progressives of course.
        kragen 5y ago
        As I said in that thread, "I think a big part of what's going on here is that people don't think deeply so they can be easily influenced by how questions are phrased." Progressives are the least likely to say yes if you ask it that way, so I think you're lying, just as you were lying about what my own data said. Please stop.
deleted 5y ago
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kragen 5y ago

Presumably they were prioritizing treatment for those 65 or older over treatment for younger people, who will almost all get better without treatment, rather than leaving those over 65 to die. Even on the far right I don't think mass killing of retirees is a popular policy. In that context, being categorized as "equivalent to being 65 years and older" would be an advantage, not a disadvantage. I don't think affirmative action is a "far-left" policy in general, but rather a policy that enjoys broad popular support, at least when it comes to things like employment and education rather than immediate lifesaving treatment.

CheezeIt 5y ago
It has majority opposition in California.
- kragen 5y ago
  Yes, but it's still not a far-left fringe idea there.
  - soco 5y ago
    The US-based definition of "far left" is worth a discussion by itself.
WithinReason 5y ago
Sure, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment on how it could be interpreted both ways. I would say though that prioritising a 20 year old BIPOC person over a 64 year old would be quite a disadvantage to the older person...
- kragen 5y ago
  Concur.
rayiner 5y ago
If by “affirmative action” you mean racial preferences, then no, it’s extremely unpopular both for employment and education: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/05/08/americans-see-advantages-and-challenges-in-countrys-growing-racial-and-ethnic-diversity/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/05/08/america...; https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americans-say-colleges-should-not-consider-race-or-ethnicity-in-admissions/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americ... A majority of every minority group opposes expressly considering race in hiring and education. The prevalence of these policies is the result of its popularity among the white social liberals who increasingly run the country’s businesses and institutions.
- kragen 5y ago
  I'm not sure what other meaning of "affirmative action" there is. Those studies claim that 27% and 24% of the surveyed population, respectively, favors affirmative action. I guess that falls short of "broad popular support" as I was saying, but it it's also far from what I think of as "far left", both because if the correlation with leftism were perfect, that's still the top quartile of the population, and because there's more to leftism than affirmative action, so the correlation isn't perfect. Other polls come up with numbers like 62% https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/565628-62-percent-of-americans-favor-affirmative-action-programs https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/565628-62-... and 45% (8 years ago) https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/poll_public_support_for_affirmative_action_at_an_all_time_low https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/poll_public_support_for_af.... I think a big part of what's going on here is that people don't think deeply so they can be easily influenced by how questions are phrased. I agree that minority groups aren't the ones promoting affirmative action, but rather US elites, who are overwhelmingly white. I don't think it's a particularly liberal policy, though it's not something liberalism has defined itself by opposition to, and Millian consequentialist liberalism is a common framework for justifying it; but a lot of the constituency for affirmative action is illiberal "progressives".
  - rayiner 5y ago
    I generally agree with your points above, especially that it’s not a far left idea. It’s a mainstream left idea. But one quibble. “Affirmative action,” as used by Kennedy and Nixon, originally meant the government taking “affirmative action” to eliminate discrimination in government hiring: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/learn-origins-term-affirmative-action-180959531 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/learn-origins-term-af...; see also https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/11478.html https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/execu.... So it wasn’t sufficient not to have officially discriminatory hiring policies, but you had to take affirmative steps to root out discrimination in the hiring process. Even today, affirmative action can refer to measures like broadening the recruiting pipelines. Recruiting at HBCUs might be considered a sort of affirmative action policy. What the polls consistently show is that minorities support “affirmative action” in the abstract, but don’t support using race as an express consideration with respect to individual decisions. I don’t think its fair to say they’re not “thinking deeply” about the question. I think that instead the questions are referring to somewhat different substantive policies, and you’re seeing the result of people who agree with the general ends of “affirmative action” drawing lines between specific means they support and ones they don’t.
yucky 5y ago
Affirmative Action is systemic racial discrimination (by definition) and you think that has widespread support? Maybe in "progressive" circles, but I think most people see it for what it is. I think most people rather support the idea of a needs based system, not one that requires a color chart to determine who gets what.
- kragen 5y ago
  Yes. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30147200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30147200.
  - yucky 5y ago
    I'm confused, your own data says a small minority supports racially discriminatory policies like affirmative action.
    - kragen 5y ago
      The four different polls we found in that thread found that, in the US, 24%, 27%, 45%, or 62% supports affirmative action. None of these is "a small minority", though some do fall short of being "broad popular support".
      - yucky 5y ago
        >24%, 27%, 45%, or 62% Seems reliable lol I prefer to ask people if they support racial discrimination. Very few say yes, outside of progressives of course.
        kragen 5y ago
        As I said in that thread, "I think a big part of what's going on here is that people don't think deeply so they can be easily influenced by how questions are phrased." Progressives are the least likely to say yes if you ask it that way, so I think you're lying, just as you were lying about what my own data said. Please stop.

deleted 5y ago

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