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One thing that can hopefully change that, is the move to remote work where that is possible. It allows high income earners to move to lower cost of living areas

One thing that can hopefully change that, is the move to remote work where that is possible. It allows high income earners to move to lower cost of living areas (or never leave them to begin with), removing the power that landlords of existing high jobs areas have purely because of pre existing capital, and potentially help revitalize areas that were in downturns before. I know that the only reason I left my hometown is because of higher paying jobs in other cities/countries. If I could make what I make here, while living there, I would probably go back so I could be closer to my family, plus have my taxes help my hometown and country, instead of some other country.

UnpossibleJim 5y ago
I enjoy working remotely and I hope it lasts, but I have to admit a large part of me does worry that it makes my job easier to outsource. If some sort of controls aren't put on companies, I don't know how we can stop massive outsourcing of the white collar jobs, just like what occurred in the manufacturing sector - except with less infrastructure to move.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  All jobs have creative and procedural elements. The procedural elements can be indefinitely outsourced, and eventually automated. The creative parts… well, they're hard to measure. Companies that outsource procedural elements of a job and discard creative elements will slowly fail, unless they have sufficiently-large monopolies that it barely matters what actually goes on inside the company.
- thePostFuturist 5y ago
  There are language, timezone, and legal (contract and IP enforcement) barriers to completely outsource a core engineering team. Modules, such as QA, however, are up for grabs even today.
- noduerme 5y ago
  I've spent the last 20 years working remotely, and 10 of them traveling/living in cities, towns and villages in South America, Europe and Asia. I've been happy to see talented locals get better jobs working internationally and boost their incomes. I've never once been concerned with being displaced by some tidal wave of offshore workers. Here's why: * You, as a native English speaker, familiar with American business culture and someone with years of experience in the field are always going to be paid an order of magnitude more than someone just learning the ropes. * You can, if you want, outsource your tasks to other people wherever you are. * You understand that this luck, this privilege, is not going to last forever, because ultimately these jobs will equalize out around the world. And it's right and fair that they should. So you take the advantage you have now and you parlay it into securing something for your future. The inequality between an American who can live like a king on $200k a year working remotely in a village in Brazil, and a local kid who's learning Javascript there and making $1k a month, is going to even itself out. And that's a good thing for efficiency, equality, and the global economy as a whole. All you have to do is be on the right side of it, ride the wave while it lasts, pass on some knowledge, and by the time they're fantastic at taking your job over you'll be 20 years ahead all over again. There's no reason to feel insecure or guilty about it. The global south is not behind America because America is trying to restrict education there. America does plenty of damage to its own educational system, but it needs skilled workers abroad. The global south is behind America because it hasn't fully shifted from economies of community to economies of scale. That's a multi-generational change. Not to be blunt, but it's plenty of time to become an owner rather than a worker.
- krageon 5y ago
  Outsourcing for knowledge jobs is currently a giant pile of disasters (as in, not one time have I seen folks happy with the result). Given that this is the case, I wouldn't worry too much about outsourcing as a general trend.
creakingstairs 5y ago
Yeah we’ve actually moved to a new country to experiment with the idea of remote working in lower COL area. But it sucks to think that we may not be able to live in the area we grew up in if we want to go back.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
> It allows high income earners to move to lower cost of living areas (or never leave them to begin with) But the algorithms are already compensating for that. Many companies are paying “location differential” salaries. It will probably result in a new form of outsourcing. The “good” news, however, is that it won’t last. Many formerly affordable areas are already seeing gentrification and median income jumps, as a result, so they are being flooded with yuppies, and driving out the lifelong residents. I’m watching that happen to Brooklyn, in New York. I know that it is almost catastrophic, in San Francisco. I’ve seen the “Google buses,” on 101. I’m hoping that unions make a comeback, but that’s a damoclean sword; as the American system is highly adversarial, and can be corrupted fairly easily. It’s also becoming almost impossible to get jobs, unless you jump through crazy hoops, and don’t get me started on the silly whiteboard tests. It’s resulting in things like “leetcode bootcamps,” and consultants, that will help you to “optimize” your CV for scanning algos. Background checks are almost certain to find something wrong; especially in this age of social media. I remember, a few years ago, when a teacher was fired, because she posted a Facebook picture of herself on vacation, with a drink in her hand[0], and there’s a prominent Canadian psychologist, permanently barred from the US, because he wrote an article, where he mentioned taking LSD, while in college, in the 1960s[1]. Also, politicians almost always have something in their past, that can be used in “oppo research.” [0] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354515/Teacher-sacked-posting-picture-holding-glass-wine-mug-beer-Facebook.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354515/Teacher-sac... [1] https://www.wired.com/2007/04/canadian-psycho/ https://www.wired.com/2007/04/canadian-psycho/
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  >But the algorithms are already compensating for that. Many companies are paying “location differential” salaries. It will probably result in a new form of outsourcing. so, combined services for remote workers - maintain fake address in high cost of living area, providing phone service with rerouting of calls to your real number, providing vpn service so you have an ip address from that high cost of living area.

UnpossibleJim 5y ago

I enjoy working remotely and I hope it lasts, but I have to admit a large part of me does worry that it makes my job easier to outsource. If some sort of controls aren't put on companies, I don't know how we can stop massive outsourcing of the white collar jobs, just like what occurred in the manufacturing sector - except with less infrastructure to move.

wizzwizz4 5y ago
All jobs have creative and procedural elements. The procedural elements can be indefinitely outsourced, and eventually automated. The creative parts… well, they're hard to measure. Companies that outsource procedural elements of a job and discard creative elements will slowly fail, unless they have sufficiently-large monopolies that it barely matters what actually goes on inside the company.
thePostFuturist 5y ago
There are language, timezone, and legal (contract and IP enforcement) barriers to completely outsource a core engineering team. Modules, such as QA, however, are up for grabs even today.
noduerme 5y ago
I've spent the last 20 years working remotely, and 10 of them traveling/living in cities, towns and villages in South America, Europe and Asia. I've been happy to see talented locals get better jobs working internationally and boost their incomes. I've never once been concerned with being displaced by some tidal wave of offshore workers. Here's why: * You, as a native English speaker, familiar with American business culture and someone with years of experience in the field are always going to be paid an order of magnitude more than someone just learning the ropes. * You can, if you want, outsource your tasks to other people wherever you are. * You understand that this luck, this privilege, is not going to last forever, because ultimately these jobs will equalize out around the world. And it's right and fair that they should. So you take the advantage you have now and you parlay it into securing something for your future. The inequality between an American who can live like a king on $200k a year working remotely in a village in Brazil, and a local kid who's learning Javascript there and making $1k a month, is going to even itself out. And that's a good thing for efficiency, equality, and the global economy as a whole. All you have to do is be on the right side of it, ride the wave while it lasts, pass on some knowledge, and by the time they're fantastic at taking your job over you'll be 20 years ahead all over again. There's no reason to feel insecure or guilty about it. The global south is not behind America because America is trying to restrict education there. America does plenty of damage to its own educational system, but it needs skilled workers abroad. The global south is behind America because it hasn't fully shifted from economies of community to economies of scale. That's a multi-generational change. Not to be blunt, but it's plenty of time to become an owner rather than a worker.
krageon 5y ago
Outsourcing for knowledge jobs is currently a giant pile of disasters (as in, not one time have I seen folks happy with the result). Given that this is the case, I wouldn't worry too much about outsourcing as a general trend.

creakingstairs 5y ago

Yeah we’ve actually moved to a new country to experiment with the idea of remote working in lower COL area. But it sucks to think that we may not be able to live in the area we grew up in if we want to go back.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

> It allows high income earners to move to lower cost of living areas (or never leave them to begin with) But the algorithms are already compensating for that. Many companies are paying “location differential” salaries. It will probably result in a new form of outsourcing. The “good” news, however, is that it won’t last. Many formerly affordable areas are already seeing gentrification and median income jumps, as a result, so they are being flooded with yuppies, and driving out the lifelong residents. I’m watching that happen to Brooklyn, in New York. I know that it is almost catastrophic, in San Francisco. I’ve seen the “Google buses,” on 101. I’m hoping that unions make a comeback, but that’s a damoclean sword; as the American system is highly adversarial, and can be corrupted fairly easily. It’s also becoming almost impossible to get jobs, unless you jump through crazy hoops, and don’t get me started on the silly whiteboard tests. It’s resulting in things like “leetcode bootcamps,” and consultants, that will help you to “optimize” your CV for scanning algos. Background checks are almost certain to find something wrong; especially in this age of social media. I remember, a few years ago, when a teacher was fired, because she posted a Facebook picture of herself on vacation, with a drink in her hand[0], and there’s a prominent Canadian psychologist, permanently barred from the US, because he wrote an article, where he mentioned taking LSD, while in college, in the 1960s[1]. Also, politicians almost always have something in their past, that can be used in “oppo research.” [0] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354515/Teacher-sacked-posting-picture-holding-glass-wine-mug-beer-Facebook.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354515/Teacher-sac... [1] https://www.wired.com/2007/04/canadian-psycho/ https://www.wired.com/2007/04/canadian-psycho/

bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>But the algorithms are already compensating for that. Many companies are paying “location differential” salaries. It will probably result in a new form of outsourcing. so, combined services for remote workers - maintain fake address in high cost of living area, providing phone service with rerouting of calls to your real number, providing vpn service so you have an ip address from that high cost of living area.