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1) 150K/year production rate by mid-2023 just for the Lightning. 2) Millions of non-Tesla EVs are sold every year. Tesla is not the market leader in all region

1) 150K/year production rate by mid-2023 just for the Lightning. 2) Millions of non-Tesla EVs are sold every year. Tesla is not the market leader in all regions. 3) The US is not the world's largest EV market. We're less important than Europe or China to car manufacturers when it comes to EVs. 4) GM EVs outsold Tesla EVs last year in China.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
Hard to outsell someone in China who already has 4 factories when you don't have a factory on the same continent...
- dangrossman 5y ago
  China is where Tesla's largest, highest production rate factory is located. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Shanghai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Shanghai
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    Highest theoretical production rate, they literally just started pumping out vehicles with any volume within the past year. Fremont has the highest production rate, where are you getting your information? How long have GM had factories in China? > "General Motors Co. traces its [Chinese] roots back to 1908. GM has 10 joint ventures, two wholly owned foreign enterprises and more than 58,000 employees in China." - From their website
    - dangrossman 5y ago
      > Fremont has the highest production rate, where are you getting your information? It's in the link I already provided. Here's another source: https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/giga-shanghai-november-2021-production-figures/ https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/giga-shanghai-november-2021...
      - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
        Highest annualized rate, aka if they are operating at peak efficiency then it's the highest production plant. Fremont is still outpacing Shanghai in terms of volume total. Your original comment that GM pumped out more EVs than Tesla in China is obvious since Tesla has just begun their production volume out of Shanghai with any scale, so not sure the point you were trying to make. With Berlin coming online soon too, Tesla is going to have a much bigger footprint in the EU/Asia combined.
        dangrossman 5y ago
        Matt (parent) is a Tesla employee. It's strange how you weren't aware of your employer's largest factory existing upthread, but think its production numbers are also "obvious" to everyone.
        halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
        Read into it as you wish but I was responding to your outlandish analysis with an equally outlandish one.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> 4) GM EVs outsold Tesla EVs last year in China. I assume you mean in units sold rather than revenue acquired via EV sales? Because what GM is selling in China is just one step above a golf cart and can’t bring much money in. Also, I wonder if the product is more SAIC than GM, these are still Chinese majority owned JVs after all.
- piva00 5y ago
  Why would it be relevant to talk in terms of market revenue in this case?
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Because a near golf cart at $6k selling twice as many units as a model 3 at $40-50k isn’t very relevant either.
    - bradlys 5y ago
      It’s still an ICE vehicle being taken off the road. Good enough in many cases.
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        Yes, but the comparison with the Tesla cars is not relevant.
    - piva00 5y ago
      In what sense isn't it relevant? I still feel this is too focused on business and revenue against real value to society. Is a US$ 40-50k Model 3 more valuable to society, as a whole, than 10 simpler EV the size of a golf cart being used by people who can't afford a US$ 40-50k car?
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        > than 10 simpler EV the size of a golf cart being used by people who can't afford a US$ 40-50k car You are looking at totally different markets. The model 3 is going to big cities, replacing ICE Toyotas and Hondas, fairly big cars for a middle class that wouldn't tolerate driving around in a golf cart (nor would such cars probably be allowed in those cities). Then we have small towns and rural areas where the $6k car is targeted. They wouldn't be interested in a model 3 either, nor would they be interested in an ICE Toyota Camry.
ggreer 5y ago
> 4) GM EVs outsold Tesla EVs last year in China. That's technically true but very misleading. GM owns a 44% stake in SAIC-GM-Wuling[1] which manufactures the Hongguang Mini EV. The Hongguang Mini costs $4,162-$5,607, seats four people, has a 17.4hp motor, and 75-106 miles of range. Its top speed is 62mph. It does not support fast charging so it can only add 12.5 miles of range per hour. The Hongguang Mini is too unsafe to be sold in the US. It has no airbags and performs horribly in crash tests.[2] The battery pack also has minimal safety features[3] and no thermal management, meaning it will degrade quickly in hot climates and can be destroyed by below-freezing temperatures. In short: A company that GM partially owns sold more roided-up golf carts than Tesla sold cars. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAIC-GM-Wuling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAIC-GM-Wuling 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-coIUMHp4g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-coIUMHp4g 3. https://www.winackbattery.com/news/Internal-Structure-of-SGMW-Wuling-Hongguang-MINI-EV-Battery-Pack.html https://www.winackbattery.com/news/Internal-Structure-of-SGM...

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago

Hard to outsell someone in China who already has 4 factories when you don't have a factory on the same continent...

dangrossman 5y ago
China is where Tesla's largest, highest production rate factory is located. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Shanghai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Shanghai
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  Highest theoretical production rate, they literally just started pumping out vehicles with any volume within the past year. Fremont has the highest production rate, where are you getting your information? How long have GM had factories in China? > "General Motors Co. traces its [Chinese] roots back to 1908. GM has 10 joint ventures, two wholly owned foreign enterprises and more than 58,000 employees in China." - From their website
  - dangrossman 5y ago
    > Fremont has the highest production rate, where are you getting your information? It's in the link I already provided. Here's another source: https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/giga-shanghai-november-2021-production-figures/ https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/giga-shanghai-november-2021...
    - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
      Highest annualized rate, aka if they are operating at peak efficiency then it's the highest production plant. Fremont is still outpacing Shanghai in terms of volume total. Your original comment that GM pumped out more EVs than Tesla in China is obvious since Tesla has just begun their production volume out of Shanghai with any scale, so not sure the point you were trying to make. With Berlin coming online soon too, Tesla is going to have a much bigger footprint in the EU/Asia combined.
      - dangrossman 5y ago
        Matt (parent) is a Tesla employee. It's strange how you weren't aware of your employer's largest factory existing upthread, but think its production numbers are also "obvious" to everyone.
        halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
        Read into it as you wish but I was responding to your outlandish analysis with an equally outlandish one.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

> 4) GM EVs outsold Tesla EVs last year in China. I assume you mean in units sold rather than revenue acquired via EV sales? Because what GM is selling in China is just one step above a golf cart and can’t bring much money in. Also, I wonder if the product is more SAIC than GM, these are still Chinese majority owned JVs after all.

piva00 5y ago
Why would it be relevant to talk in terms of market revenue in this case?
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Because a near golf cart at $6k selling twice as many units as a model 3 at $40-50k isn’t very relevant either.
  - bradlys 5y ago
    It’s still an ICE vehicle being taken off the road. Good enough in many cases.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      Yes, but the comparison with the Tesla cars is not relevant.
  - piva00 5y ago
    In what sense isn't it relevant? I still feel this is too focused on business and revenue against real value to society. Is a US$ 40-50k Model 3 more valuable to society, as a whole, than 10 simpler EV the size of a golf cart being used by people who can't afford a US$ 40-50k car?
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      > than 10 simpler EV the size of a golf cart being used by people who can't afford a US$ 40-50k car You are looking at totally different markets. The model 3 is going to big cities, replacing ICE Toyotas and Hondas, fairly big cars for a middle class that wouldn't tolerate driving around in a golf cart (nor would such cars probably be allowed in those cities). Then we have small towns and rural areas where the $6k car is targeted. They wouldn't be interested in a model 3 either, nor would they be interested in an ICE Toyota Camry.

ggreer 5y ago

> 4) GM EVs outsold Tesla EVs last year in China. That's technically true but very misleading. GM owns a 44% stake in SAIC-GM-Wuling[1] which manufactures the Hongguang Mini EV. The Hongguang Mini costs $4,162-$5,607, seats four people, has a 17.4hp motor, and 75-106 miles of range. Its top speed is 62mph. It does not support fast charging so it can only add 12.5 miles of range per hour. The Hongguang Mini is too unsafe to be sold in the US. It has no airbags and performs horribly in crash tests.[2] The battery pack also has minimal safety features[3] and no thermal management, meaning it will degrade quickly in hot climates and can be destroyed by below-freezing temperatures. In short: A company that GM partially owns sold more roided-up golf carts than Tesla sold cars. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAIC-GM-Wuling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAIC-GM-Wuling 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-coIUMHp4g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-coIUMHp4g 3. https://www.winackbattery.com/news/Internal-Structure-of-SGMW-Wuling-Hongguang-MINI-EV-Battery-Pack.html https://www.winackbattery.com/news/Internal-Structure-of-SGM...