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Whoa. As a US citizen, I clicked on Peru and wasn't surprised by anything (hello 96% less spent on healthcare) -- except that I'll experience 6% more of a class

Whoa. As a US citizen, I clicked on Peru and wasn't surprised by anything (hello 96% less spent on healthcare) -- except that I'll experience 6% more of a class divide than Peru. The Gini index is interesting: "The GINI index measures the degree of inequality in the distribution of family income. In Peru it is 48.10 while in The United States it is 45.00. This index measures the degree of inequality in the distribution of family income in a country. The index is calculated from the Lorenz curve, in which cumulative family income is plotted against the number of families arranged from the poorest to the richest. The index is the ratio of (a) the area between a country's Lorenz curve and the 45 degree helping line to (b) the entire triangular area under the 45 degree line. The more nearly equal a country's income distribution, the closer its Lorenz curve to the 45 degree line and the lower its Gini index, e.g., a Scandinavian country with an index of 25. The more unequal a country's income distribution, the farther its Lorenz curve from the 45 degree line and the higher its Gini index, e.g., a Sub-Saharan country with an index of 50. If income were distributed with perfect equality, the Lorenz curve would coincide with the 45 degree line and the index would be zero; if income were distributed with perfect inequality, the Lorenz curve would coincide with the horizontal axis and the right vertical axis and the index would be 100." c.f https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

amelius 5y ago
In the past poor people generally didn't understand how much they were screwed over by the upper classes. However, it seems that in the US, smart people increasingly end up at the wrong side of the divide, which could mean we're heading for interesting times.
peruvianthwa 5y ago
I was born and lived in South America before I moved to the US and I'm not mentioning this so that somehow I'm granted enough authority to trust anything I say, but to encourage people to look further than this just plain numbers. I truly wish I knew how to get this point across with Americans: - Yes, we have expensive health care in the US - Yes, we are privilege because most of us have jobs that provide us with relatively good health care policies I think this fight-for-a-greater-good has blinded people as to give examples like yours -- utterly disrespectful. Most of the time health care in those countries cannot and is nowhere close to be compared to the US, UNLESS, of course, you go to private practices where you're back to "uhm, so maybe it's not so cheap after all". If you're so inclined in advocating for new policy, I welcome you to travel and experience, ask the locals, etc, how their healthcare system works. This site claims that people would spend 93.33% less on health care in Venezuela, that is, if you're lucky enough to even get health care. This site claims that people would spend 88.81% less on health care in Argentina, that is, if you can afford to wait long enough to get whatever medical attention you need. I'm more than willing to answer any questions if you have them. I'm just trying to raise awareness because I DO NOT want America to become what I escaped from.
- bee_rider 5y ago
  The site claims to combine the public and private healthcare costs. I guess these private practices would also be included in their figure, unless they are under the table or something like that. On the other hand, the medical stats are generally tricky to parse, right? I guess most of the cost in the overall system comes from dealing with rare emergencies (such that most people won't encounter such an emergency during their lifetime) (I think this is the case, but it is just my gut talking, maybe someone can correct me). I guess the figure should will depend on how we price the availability of these emergency services, into the overall price. Or other sort of customer-service type things that aren't 100% related to just providing the best possible medical treatments. This seems more like an accounting thing to me. Also Americans are generally pretty unhealthy, so our costs will naturally be a bit high. Which isn't to say I'm happy with the US system -- it clearly needs some improvement. I'm just not sure this 93.33% figure is why. I'm not sure we need to compare to Peru. It is unfortunate that the right in the US seems to have complete ownership of American Exceptionalism -- it ought to be possible to say "we're the most powerful and richest country ever, we should have exceptional healthcare."
- nebula8804 5y ago
  This mentality is really holding the US back from joining other developed Western nations in solving this problem. We see this with the Cuban immigrants in Florida and their boneheaded reactions to labeling any attempts to move towards the European system as "socialism". At a certain point, it feels like immigrants from these kinds of countries are a liability and thats difficult to say but I don't know what else will stop the US from being continually pulled back from progress. YES we acknowledge that the US system is better than third world countries. However medical debt is the largest cause of bankruptcy in the US by far! The fact that employers provide healthcare causes it to be used as a ball and chain reducing freedom because losing that healthcare will always be hanging over employees heads. Finally, many people who are "insured" are paying out the nose for terrible heath-care. 40% of Americans can't even cover a 400$ emergency but now they are forced into buying insurance through the "Obamacare" marketplace. Basic plans that have multi-thousand dollar deductibles essentially are free money to the insurance companies because if those people can't afford 400$, you really think they are going to shell out for the deductible for anything other than dire emergencies? If you are rich, the US healthcare is by far the best of the best. For everyone else, it is a mafia racket that is not preferable to what Europe and the rest of the developed world has. The majority of natural born Americans want to move towards a kind of healthcare system that the rest of the West has because with the advent of the internet and increased travel we have seen our fellow compatriots in these countries and what they go through. Yet we keep hearing these terrible talking points from shell shocked immigrants of Latin America and other poor nations who do not seem to understand what it is really like in the rest of the developed world. [1]: https://abcnews.go.com/US/10-americans-struggle-cover-400-emergency-expense-federal/story?id=63253846 https://abcnews.go.com/US/10-americans-struggle-cover-400-em...

amelius 5y ago

In the past poor people generally didn't understand how much they were screwed over by the upper classes. However, it seems that in the US, smart people increasingly end up at the wrong side of the divide, which could mean we're heading for interesting times.

peruvianthwa 5y ago

I was born and lived in South America before I moved to the US and I'm not mentioning this so that somehow I'm granted enough authority to trust anything I say, but to encourage people to look further than this just plain numbers. I truly wish I knew how to get this point across with Americans: - Yes, we have expensive health care in the US - Yes, we are privilege because most of us have jobs that provide us with relatively good health care policies I think this fight-for-a-greater-good has blinded people as to give examples like yours -- utterly disrespectful. Most of the time health care in those countries cannot and is nowhere close to be compared to the US, UNLESS, of course, you go to private practices where you're back to "uhm, so maybe it's not so cheap after all". If you're so inclined in advocating for new policy, I welcome you to travel and experience, ask the locals, etc, how their healthcare system works. This site claims that people would spend 93.33% less on health care in Venezuela, that is, if you're lucky enough to even get health care. This site claims that people would spend 88.81% less on health care in Argentina, that is, if you can afford to wait long enough to get whatever medical attention you need. I'm more than willing to answer any questions if you have them. I'm just trying to raise awareness because I DO NOT want America to become what I escaped from.

bee_rider 5y ago
The site claims to combine the public and private healthcare costs. I guess these private practices would also be included in their figure, unless they are under the table or something like that. On the other hand, the medical stats are generally tricky to parse, right? I guess most of the cost in the overall system comes from dealing with rare emergencies (such that most people won't encounter such an emergency during their lifetime) (I think this is the case, but it is just my gut talking, maybe someone can correct me). I guess the figure should will depend on how we price the availability of these emergency services, into the overall price. Or other sort of customer-service type things that aren't 100% related to just providing the best possible medical treatments. This seems more like an accounting thing to me. Also Americans are generally pretty unhealthy, so our costs will naturally be a bit high. Which isn't to say I'm happy with the US system -- it clearly needs some improvement. I'm just not sure this 93.33% figure is why. I'm not sure we need to compare to Peru. It is unfortunate that the right in the US seems to have complete ownership of American Exceptionalism -- it ought to be possible to say "we're the most powerful and richest country ever, we should have exceptional healthcare."
nebula8804 5y ago
This mentality is really holding the US back from joining other developed Western nations in solving this problem. We see this with the Cuban immigrants in Florida and their boneheaded reactions to labeling any attempts to move towards the European system as "socialism". At a certain point, it feels like immigrants from these kinds of countries are a liability and thats difficult to say but I don't know what else will stop the US from being continually pulled back from progress. YES we acknowledge that the US system is better than third world countries. However medical debt is the largest cause of bankruptcy in the US by far! The fact that employers provide healthcare causes it to be used as a ball and chain reducing freedom because losing that healthcare will always be hanging over employees heads. Finally, many people who are "insured" are paying out the nose for terrible heath-care. 40% of Americans can't even cover a 400$ emergency but now they are forced into buying insurance through the "Obamacare" marketplace. Basic plans that have multi-thousand dollar deductibles essentially are free money to the insurance companies because if those people can't afford 400$, you really think they are going to shell out for the deductible for anything other than dire emergencies? If you are rich, the US healthcare is by far the best of the best. For everyone else, it is a mafia racket that is not preferable to what Europe and the rest of the developed world has. The majority of natural born Americans want to move towards a kind of healthcare system that the rest of the West has because with the advent of the internet and increased travel we have seen our fellow compatriots in these countries and what they go through. Yet we keep hearing these terrible talking points from shell shocked immigrants of Latin America and other poor nations who do not seem to understand what it is really like in the rest of the developed world. [1]: https://abcnews.go.com/US/10-americans-struggle-cover-400-emergency-expense-federal/story?id=63253846 https://abcnews.go.com/US/10-americans-struggle-cover-400-em...