6 ms·

I too was pissed about the popups until I realized it the companies throwing up the popups that are to blame. Hosting all your assets by yourself, on your own

I too was pissed about the popups until I realized it the companies throwing up the popups that are to blame. Hosting all your assets by yourself, on your own servers and doing analytics without sending data to a third party is not a terribly tall order.

questiondev 5y ago
that is true but it increases the barrier to entry for those who use google fonts for system resource issues, a lot of people offload because they don’t have the space or money to self host everything one could argue that it is less eco friendly as well given how much space is going to be used repeating the same file on a multitude of servers
- brtkdotse 5y ago
  A Google font file is just a small file, smaller than most images. You can download it and place is along side your css files. And seeing how most websites are 20 megs+, the eco argument seems forced.
- Youden 5y ago
  A $5 VPS comes with several gigabytes of storage. A standard web font (e.g. Roboto) is ~1MB. Bandwidth is essentially free through CloudFlare. Who doesn't have the space or money to self-host their fonts?
  - kalleboo 5y ago
    Is it really better to tunnel your whole site through CloudFlare than embed a font from Google, from a privacy perspective?
  - krehl 5y ago
    This as well would "leak" the IP address to Cloudflare, wouldn't it?
    - hammyhavoc 5y ago
      https://www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/trust-hub/gdpr/ https://www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/trust-hub/gdpr/
  - cuu508 5y ago
    > A standard web font (e.g. Roboto) is ~1MB. Currently on HN frontpage there is an article "How to avoid layout shifts caused by web fonts" [1]. It lists several techniques you can use to reduce font size. One of the examples shows how subsetting reduces Roboto Regular size to 11KB. [1] https://simonhearne.com/2021/layout-shifts-webfonts/ https://simonhearne.com/2021/layout-shifts-webfonts/.
  - skyeto 5y ago
    (in reply to krehl) And in that specific case you should probably have a DPA ready. Big issue with anything Google-related (and probably CloudFlare) is that they may transfer the data outside of the EU[0]. [0] https://noyb.eu/en/austrian-dsb-eu-us-data-transfers-google-analytics-illegal https://noyb.eu/en/austrian-dsb-eu-us-data-transfers-google-...
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    I wonder if you can get penalized for sending users' IPs to CloudFlare..
    - hammyhavoc 5y ago
      https://www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/trust-hub/gdpr/ https://www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/trust-hub/gdpr/
  - redleader55 5y ago
    You're probably liable to pay the plaintiff 100 EUR for leaking their IP address to CloudFlare, as well as paying 100 EUR for leaking it to Azure/AWS/etc. /partially sarcasm
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    I'm really starting to question why aren't we using fonts that are standard part of browsers? Just have a reasonable sub-set supported by everyone. This would be great climate action too as we would not be wasting energy to redownload them billions if not trillions of time.
    - hammyhavoc 5y ago
      Agreed. But why not update what ships with modern OS so that these fonts can be used system-wide? Open Sans, Noto Sans and Roboto for everybody.
  - ratww 5y ago
    The Roboto woff2 file is actually only 16kb for each variation, and that's the format most browsers will use in practice.
- lkramer 5y ago
  An interesting question. Someone should do a environment cost impact on self hosting fonts (and other resources) vs client having to make lot's of requests to various hosts for those resources.
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
    None of the standard browsers share third-party cache across different domains. Made it too easy to leak data.
- cuu508 5y ago
  > one could argue that it is less eco friendly as well given how much space is going to be used repeating the same file on a multitude of server Browsers don't share cache between sites: https://www.stefanjudis.com/notes/say-goodbye-to-resource-caching-across-sites-and-domains/ https://www.stefanjudis.com/notes/say-goodbye-to-resource-ca...
losvedir 5y ago
Actually, your comment made me wonder how far does this go? Where does "third party" end? If I self host on Hertzner or Linode, I imagine their infrastructure logs IP addresses like Google Fonts here. But surely that doesn't require consent. Why not, what's the difference? What if you host with a much sketchier provider? I could see politicians thinking users would want to know if their requests were served by, say, China or Russia.
- Hnrobert42 5y ago
  For that matter, does the fact that reaching my self hosted site must travel the last mile along a service I paid for (my ISP), mean I must gain consent for using them?
- jlokier 5y ago
  With Hetzner you can get a GDPR compliant Data Processing Agreement (DPA) when using them for hosting. https://www.hetzner.com/news/vertrag-zur-auftragsverarbeitung-gemaess-art-28-ds-gvo-steht-ab-sofort-online-zur-verfuegung-eintrag/ https://www.hetzner.com/news/vertrag-zur-auftragsverarbeitun... It's ok that their infrastructure logs IPs that it has to. They commit via their DPA to protecting personal data such as embedded in those logs, not logging what they don't need, not keeping it longer than necessary, only sharing it with third parties that agree similar protections, anonymising and aggregating as needed, etc. You probably want an agreement like that with a hosting provider for another reason, not just IP logging: They have physical access to all your on site storage, user databases, etc. It's good that they commit to treating data on those physical systems with appropriate respect.
dgellow 5y ago
You don’t even need to host yourself the asset, just setup a reverse proxy that drops personal information and redirect the request to the source (Google, or whatever). It’s a simple Nginx rule.
- liveoneggs 5y ago
  Google rate limits and then blocks your server ip? oops Doubling your bandwidth costs vs hosting the woff files? oops Still forwarding the ip address in the X-Forwarded-For header? oops Not following the license agreements of font providers? my bad
- pembrook 5y ago
  Oh, super simple! The local bakery down the street just needs to figure out what a reverse proxy is, what a redirect is, and what Nginx is and how set rules for it, and then weigh the pros and cons vs self-hosting assets. I’m sure that’s easily doable for them, aren’t regulations fun?
  - Handytinge 5y ago
    They also will have regulations around financr, health codes, discrimination and hiring, etc etc. Very few business owners are experts in all regulations when starting. You learn and adjust.
  - brtkdotse 5y ago
    No, the bakery’s _website provider_ should do that.

questiondev 5y ago

that is true but it increases the barrier to entry for those who use google fonts for system resource issues, a lot of people offload because they don’t have the space or money to self host everything one could argue that it is less eco friendly as well given how much space is going to be used repeating the same file on a multitude of servers

brtkdotse 5y ago
A Google font file is just a small file, smaller than most images. You can download it and place is along side your css files. And seeing how most websites are 20 megs+, the eco argument seems forced.
Youden 5y ago
A $5 VPS comes with several gigabytes of storage. A standard web font (e.g. Roboto) is ~1MB. Bandwidth is essentially free through CloudFlare. Who doesn't have the space or money to self-host their fonts?
- kalleboo 5y ago
  Is it really better to tunnel your whole site through CloudFlare than embed a font from Google, from a privacy perspective?
- krehl 5y ago
  This as well would "leak" the IP address to Cloudflare, wouldn't it?
  - hammyhavoc 5y ago
    https://www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/trust-hub/gdpr/ https://www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/trust-hub/gdpr/
- cuu508 5y ago
  > A standard web font (e.g. Roboto) is ~1MB. Currently on HN frontpage there is an article "How to avoid layout shifts caused by web fonts" [1]. It lists several techniques you can use to reduce font size. One of the examples shows how subsetting reduces Roboto Regular size to 11KB. [1] https://simonhearne.com/2021/layout-shifts-webfonts/ https://simonhearne.com/2021/layout-shifts-webfonts/.
- skyeto 5y ago
  (in reply to krehl) And in that specific case you should probably have a DPA ready. Big issue with anything Google-related (and probably CloudFlare) is that they may transfer the data outside of the EU[0]. [0] https://noyb.eu/en/austrian-dsb-eu-us-data-transfers-google-analytics-illegal https://noyb.eu/en/austrian-dsb-eu-us-data-transfers-google-...
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  I wonder if you can get penalized for sending users' IPs to CloudFlare..
  - hammyhavoc 5y ago
    https://www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/trust-hub/gdpr/ https://www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/trust-hub/gdpr/
- redleader55 5y ago
  You're probably liable to pay the plaintiff 100 EUR for leaking their IP address to CloudFlare, as well as paying 100 EUR for leaking it to Azure/AWS/etc. /partially sarcasm
- Ekaros 5y ago
  I'm really starting to question why aren't we using fonts that are standard part of browsers? Just have a reasonable sub-set supported by everyone. This would be great climate action too as we would not be wasting energy to redownload them billions if not trillions of time.
  - hammyhavoc 5y ago
    Agreed. But why not update what ships with modern OS so that these fonts can be used system-wide? Open Sans, Noto Sans and Roboto for everybody.
- ratww 5y ago
  The Roboto woff2 file is actually only 16kb for each variation, and that's the format most browsers will use in practice.
lkramer 5y ago
An interesting question. Someone should do a environment cost impact on self hosting fonts (and other resources) vs client having to make lot's of requests to various hosts for those resources.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
  None of the standard browsers share third-party cache across different domains. Made it too easy to leak data.
cuu508 5y ago
> one could argue that it is less eco friendly as well given how much space is going to be used repeating the same file on a multitude of server Browsers don't share cache between sites: https://www.stefanjudis.com/notes/say-goodbye-to-resource-caching-across-sites-and-domains/ https://www.stefanjudis.com/notes/say-goodbye-to-resource-ca...

losvedir 5y ago

Actually, your comment made me wonder how far does this go? Where does "third party" end? If I self host on Hertzner or Linode, I imagine their infrastructure logs IP addresses like Google Fonts here. But surely that doesn't require consent. Why not, what's the difference? What if you host with a much sketchier provider? I could see politicians thinking users would want to know if their requests were served by, say, China or Russia.

Hnrobert42 5y ago
For that matter, does the fact that reaching my self hosted site must travel the last mile along a service I paid for (my ISP), mean I must gain consent for using them?
jlokier 5y ago
With Hetzner you can get a GDPR compliant Data Processing Agreement (DPA) when using them for hosting. https://www.hetzner.com/news/vertrag-zur-auftragsverarbeitung-gemaess-art-28-ds-gvo-steht-ab-sofort-online-zur-verfuegung-eintrag/ https://www.hetzner.com/news/vertrag-zur-auftragsverarbeitun... It's ok that their infrastructure logs IPs that it has to. They commit via their DPA to protecting personal data such as embedded in those logs, not logging what they don't need, not keeping it longer than necessary, only sharing it with third parties that agree similar protections, anonymising and aggregating as needed, etc. You probably want an agreement like that with a hosting provider for another reason, not just IP logging: They have physical access to all your on site storage, user databases, etc. It's good that they commit to treating data on those physical systems with appropriate respect.

dgellow 5y ago

You don’t even need to host yourself the asset, just setup a reverse proxy that drops personal information and redirect the request to the source (Google, or whatever). It’s a simple Nginx rule.

liveoneggs 5y ago
Google rate limits and then blocks your server ip? oops Doubling your bandwidth costs vs hosting the woff files? oops Still forwarding the ip address in the X-Forwarded-For header? oops Not following the license agreements of font providers? my bad
pembrook 5y ago
Oh, super simple! The local bakery down the street just needs to figure out what a reverse proxy is, what a redirect is, and what Nginx is and how set rules for it, and then weigh the pros and cons vs self-hosting assets. I’m sure that’s easily doable for them, aren’t regulations fun?
- Handytinge 5y ago
  They also will have regulations around financr, health codes, discrimination and hiring, etc etc. Very few business owners are experts in all regulations when starting. You learn and adjust.
- brtkdotse 5y ago
  No, the bakery’s _website provider_ should do that.