8 ms·

Succinct and timely as we watch the US media and political class breathlessly try to rally us all to go to war with Russia. Even the Ukrainians aren't as eager

Succinct and timely as we watch the US media and political class breathlessly try to rally us all to go to war with Russia. Even the Ukrainians aren't as eager and worked-up; NATO, in fact, has not stood up any forces so far. It's insane.

adventured 5y ago
Where is major media in the US commonly arguing in favor of a US war with Russia? They're certainly talking about Russia re Ukraine frequently. I've seen a lot of the headlines spilling out of NY Times, WaPo, Fox, MSNBC, et al. and they're not arguing in favor of the US going to war with Russia. That's a very rare argument. Almost exclusively the arguments are about how to respond after Russia invades Ukraine, in terms of the severity of sanctions. As well as if the US should be (or can) doing anything right now to dissuade Russia from invading. I'm also seeing no common arguments in the US media in favor of a NATO war with Russia more broadly. Go look at the home pages for CNN, Fox, MSNBC, CNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, Washington Post, NY Times, LA Times. Where are all the arguments in favor of war with Russia? All I'm seeing is a lot of discussion about the context of Russia being on Ukraine's border and the odds they'll invade or not, and what non-war response will be appropriate afterward (including eg moving more US forces into other eastern NATO nations as support to the security of those nations).
- fguerraz 5y ago
  It's all about making the war seem unavoidable. Building a common frame of reference that will then be played by media and politics to position the US on the "right side". Do the US media talk about how the US (via NATO) is, and has been for years, provoking Russia? If you find the above outrageous, then the media has done a fine job, and the country is ready to go to war. No need to explicitly argue in favour of it.
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
    I would like to see the Ukrainians be able to determine their own fate: without war. All the numbers say the Ukrainians, by vast majority want their country for themselves, unmolested. What I hear from Western media is deep worry for the fates of these people who have become friends of the EU bloc. I work with Ukrainians daily. I am deeply worried they will be crushed beneath the tank treads of an authoritarian dictatorship. No one should have to suffer that fate. May they be free, happy and peaceful.
    - watwut 5y ago
      It would be unfortunate for Ukraina to become next Afghanistan or Iraq too.
    - fuoqi 5y ago
      - ImprovedSilence 5y ago
        The Russian propaganda in this thread is strong…
        fuoqi 5y ago
        So you call the verifiable facts in my comment "Russian propaganda"... "The worse for the facts", am I right?
        drran 5y ago
        Yes, it's Russian propaganda. See facts at https://euvsdisinfo.eu/ https://euvsdisinfo.eu/
        fuoqi 5y ago
        So instead of pointing to at least single false fact in my comment you point me to a website which quite aggressively translates the official Western stance and does not even tries to look as independent (it's an EEAS outlet), which I should blindingly trust? For reference, I do know both Russian and Ukrainian (the latter to an extent of being able to understand news), so I built my opinion based on Ukrainian media and social networks.
        drran 5y ago
        EUvsDisinfo contains both Russian propaganda and EU vision. Just search for your «facts» there. (They have Russian translation). When Russian outlets and TV channels will present both RF and Western points of view, I will watch them, but currently I prefer to read EUvsDisinfo. > a website which quite aggressively translates the official Western stance «Aggressively»? It's not a TV channel in each major country and a show at prime time at major channels in RF, with 9 zeroes in budget. It's just a site with few guys. > For reference, I do know both Russian and Ukrainian (the latter to an extent of being able to understand news), so I built my opinion based on Ukrainian media and social networks. I guess, you're already banned from pro-Ukrainian social circles, because I see no guys like you anymore in FB. Which is a bit sad, because I like to argue with them to better understand our enemy. Where I can meet people like you on FB or YouTube?
  - beerandt 5y ago
    >It's all about making the war seem unavoidable And claiming a political win when we're "miraculously" saved from ww3 by some last minute white house phone call.
- jjj123 5y ago
  A couple nights ago I was watching some blowhard host on CNN describe going to war with Russia as “defending democracy” which is something we do “because we’re the good guys.”
- slibhb 5y ago
  It's hard to sort it out. I've read stories in American media that describe a Russian troop build-up and make an invasion seem inevitable ("they wouldn't expend these resources to mobilize this many soldiers without plans to invade"). I've also read stories that claim the Russians only have ~10,000 troops at the border, not nearly enough for an invasion, and that the amount hasn't actually changed. The Ukranians seem to be downplaying the risk of invasion. Whether or not the US media wants a war, it may be the case that they've overestimated the likelihood of an invasion.
  - petre 5y ago
    Believe what you want but this¹ is a clear indicator that an invasion is inevitable. 10k troops is likely Russian propaganda. I've read the Russian point of view and it's basically "the US has provoked this by extending NATO into Eastern Europe, Ukraine is controlled by fascists". They have failed to install a pro Russian administration in Ukraine, so their only remaining option is "liberating eastern and southern Ukraine from fascists". I've posted a map with their plans but the comment was downvoted. I'm not posting it again but they basically want to occupy and control the whole Northern Black Sea coast. 1. Russia moves blood supplies near Ukraine, adding to U.S. concern, officials say https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russia-moves-blood-supplies-near-ukraine-adding-us-concern-officials-2022-01-28/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russia-moves-...
    - slibhb 5y ago
      Sorry, it was actually 100K which still doesn't seem enough for an invasion. The question is whether the number of soldiers has increased as of late, which the Ukrainians deny. My overall point is that I don't know whether to trust articles like the one you linked or things the Ukrainians and Russians are saying. It's not that I think the American media is lying exactly but it occurs to me that they may be deluding themselves.
      - petre 5y ago
        Don't know, but I really wish they are wrong and the Russians are right in their claims that the West is "hysterical". So far all the evidence points towards preparations for an invasion and failure to recognise it as such is just wishful thinking. If they were only amassing troops, it could have been an exercise, but when mobile hospitals start to appear near a conflict area, it means preparations for war. Hopefully this will end like the Russo-Georgian war. Similar military effectives were involved on the Russian part then. To get a better view on this, I'd read what Pavel Felgenhauer has to say about this. He was right in his prediction that Russia was going to attack Georgia in August 2008. https://jamestown.org/analyst/pavel-felgenhauer/ https://jamestown.org/analyst/pavel-felgenhauer/
- mrobot 5y ago
  You've completely glossed over the root of it here. The lie that Russia is going to invade Ukraine is the "Saddam has WMDs" Every time the US media talks about an imminent "Russian Invasion", or suggests that they are not the ones instigating the war, they are indirectly instigating war with Russia by lying.
  - champagnois 5y ago
    Russia already did invade Ukraine. It has been taking Ukraine territory and waging war on Ukraine for years now. Last time Russia took over Ukraine, they genocided millions; It wasn't that long ago, either.
    - fuoqi 5y ago
      [flagged]
  - CyanBird 5y ago
    > by lying And well... By giving far right proxy forces in the Ukraine arms and training, so the proxy forces can then be used for clandestine operations and hopefully (so nato/us/UK think) instigate a Russian military response to which they can scream casius Beli and create more unrest in the entire area
    - kspacewalk2 5y ago
      > far right proxy forces armed forces of a country with a democratically elected civilian government
      - ukrainmilitias 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
  - Tuna-Fish 5y ago
    Russia currently has troops on Ukrainian soil. They invaded 8 years ago, and the invasion has not ended.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  The idea that Russia is about to invade Ukraine is pure Western propaganda. This is not Russia's plan, and is not in Russia's interest. That this unlikely event would be breathlessly trumpeted from every corner for weeks is itself a puzzle. Some have speculated that the war-pig plan is for certain fringe Ukrainian neo-Nazis who have received training in southern USA to commence a "reign of terror" against ethnic Russians in Donbas. Supposedly Putin will be unable to resist coming to the rescue. However, recent events in Artsakh have emphasized Putin's composure in such situations. American chatterers have poor mental models of Russian leadership. Why is Kazakhstan no longer in the news?
pthread_t 5y ago
That's not the only war being drummed up: "Among the members of the global alliance dedicated to destroying the American-led order, Iran is the most vulnerable. The job of the U.S. is to defang it." [0] "With negotiations likely to fail, [Biden] better be prepared for a military strike [on Iran]." [1] [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-russia-and-china-build-up-iran-biden-administration-foreign-relations-nuclear-negotiations-11643317565 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-russia-and-china-build-up-i... [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-moment-of-truth-in-iran-negotiations-deal-nuclear-warheads-proliferation-centrifuges-fissile-11641504610 https://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-moment-of-truth-in-iran-...
keewee7 5y ago
>Even the Ukrainians aren't as eager and worked-up This is so intellectually dishonest. Ukrainian politicians are downplaying the Russian threat because they don't want their population to panic and flee the country.

adventured 5y ago

Where is major media in the US commonly arguing in favor of a US war with Russia? They're certainly talking about Russia re Ukraine frequently. I've seen a lot of the headlines spilling out of NY Times, WaPo, Fox, MSNBC, et al. and they're not arguing in favor of the US going to war with Russia. That's a very rare argument. Almost exclusively the arguments are about how to respond after Russia invades Ukraine, in terms of the severity of sanctions. As well as if the US should be (or can) doing anything right now to dissuade Russia from invading. I'm also seeing no common arguments in the US media in favor of a NATO war with Russia more broadly. Go look at the home pages for CNN, Fox, MSNBC, CNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, Washington Post, NY Times, LA Times. Where are all the arguments in favor of war with Russia? All I'm seeing is a lot of discussion about the context of Russia being on Ukraine's border and the odds they'll invade or not, and what non-war response will be appropriate afterward (including eg moving more US forces into other eastern NATO nations as support to the security of those nations).

fguerraz 5y ago
It's all about making the war seem unavoidable. Building a common frame of reference that will then be played by media and politics to position the US on the "right side". Do the US media talk about how the US (via NATO) is, and has been for years, provoking Russia? If you find the above outrageous, then the media has done a fine job, and the country is ready to go to war. No need to explicitly argue in favour of it.
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  I would like to see the Ukrainians be able to determine their own fate: without war. All the numbers say the Ukrainians, by vast majority want their country for themselves, unmolested. What I hear from Western media is deep worry for the fates of these people who have become friends of the EU bloc. I work with Ukrainians daily. I am deeply worried they will be crushed beneath the tank treads of an authoritarian dictatorship. No one should have to suffer that fate. May they be free, happy and peaceful.
  - watwut 5y ago
    It would be unfortunate for Ukraina to become next Afghanistan or Iraq too.
  - fuoqi 5y ago
    - ImprovedSilence 5y ago
      The Russian propaganda in this thread is strong…
      - fuoqi 5y ago
        So you call the verifiable facts in my comment "Russian propaganda"... "The worse for the facts", am I right?
        drran 5y ago
        Yes, it's Russian propaganda. See facts at https://euvsdisinfo.eu/ https://euvsdisinfo.eu/
        fuoqi 5y ago
        So instead of pointing to at least single false fact in my comment you point me to a website which quite aggressively translates the official Western stance and does not even tries to look as independent (it's an EEAS outlet), which I should blindingly trust? For reference, I do know both Russian and Ukrainian (the latter to an extent of being able to understand news), so I built my opinion based on Ukrainian media and social networks.
        drran 5y ago
        EUvsDisinfo contains both Russian propaganda and EU vision. Just search for your «facts» there. (They have Russian translation). When Russian outlets and TV channels will present both RF and Western points of view, I will watch them, but currently I prefer to read EUvsDisinfo. > a website which quite aggressively translates the official Western stance «Aggressively»? It's not a TV channel in each major country and a show at prime time at major channels in RF, with 9 zeroes in budget. It's just a site with few guys. > For reference, I do know both Russian and Ukrainian (the latter to an extent of being able to understand news), so I built my opinion based on Ukrainian media and social networks. I guess, you're already banned from pro-Ukrainian social circles, because I see no guys like you anymore in FB. Which is a bit sad, because I like to argue with them to better understand our enemy. Where I can meet people like you on FB or YouTube?
- beerandt 5y ago
  >It's all about making the war seem unavoidable And claiming a political win when we're "miraculously" saved from ww3 by some last minute white house phone call.
jjj123 5y ago
A couple nights ago I was watching some blowhard host on CNN describe going to war with Russia as “defending democracy” which is something we do “because we’re the good guys.”
slibhb 5y ago
It's hard to sort it out. I've read stories in American media that describe a Russian troop build-up and make an invasion seem inevitable ("they wouldn't expend these resources to mobilize this many soldiers without plans to invade"). I've also read stories that claim the Russians only have ~10,000 troops at the border, not nearly enough for an invasion, and that the amount hasn't actually changed. The Ukranians seem to be downplaying the risk of invasion. Whether or not the US media wants a war, it may be the case that they've overestimated the likelihood of an invasion.
- petre 5y ago
  Believe what you want but this¹ is a clear indicator that an invasion is inevitable. 10k troops is likely Russian propaganda. I've read the Russian point of view and it's basically "the US has provoked this by extending NATO into Eastern Europe, Ukraine is controlled by fascists". They have failed to install a pro Russian administration in Ukraine, so their only remaining option is "liberating eastern and southern Ukraine from fascists". I've posted a map with their plans but the comment was downvoted. I'm not posting it again but they basically want to occupy and control the whole Northern Black Sea coast. 1. Russia moves blood supplies near Ukraine, adding to U.S. concern, officials say https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russia-moves-blood-supplies-near-ukraine-adding-us-concern-officials-2022-01-28/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russia-moves-...
  - slibhb 5y ago
    Sorry, it was actually 100K which still doesn't seem enough for an invasion. The question is whether the number of soldiers has increased as of late, which the Ukrainians deny. My overall point is that I don't know whether to trust articles like the one you linked or things the Ukrainians and Russians are saying. It's not that I think the American media is lying exactly but it occurs to me that they may be deluding themselves.
    - petre 5y ago
      Don't know, but I really wish they are wrong and the Russians are right in their claims that the West is "hysterical". So far all the evidence points towards preparations for an invasion and failure to recognise it as such is just wishful thinking. If they were only amassing troops, it could have been an exercise, but when mobile hospitals start to appear near a conflict area, it means preparations for war. Hopefully this will end like the Russo-Georgian war. Similar military effectives were involved on the Russian part then. To get a better view on this, I'd read what Pavel Felgenhauer has to say about this. He was right in his prediction that Russia was going to attack Georgia in August 2008. https://jamestown.org/analyst/pavel-felgenhauer/ https://jamestown.org/analyst/pavel-felgenhauer/
mrobot 5y ago
You've completely glossed over the root of it here. The lie that Russia is going to invade Ukraine is the "Saddam has WMDs" Every time the US media talks about an imminent "Russian Invasion", or suggests that they are not the ones instigating the war, they are indirectly instigating war with Russia by lying.
- champagnois 5y ago
  Russia already did invade Ukraine. It has been taking Ukraine territory and waging war on Ukraine for years now. Last time Russia took over Ukraine, they genocided millions; It wasn't that long ago, either.
  - fuoqi 5y ago
    [flagged]
- CyanBird 5y ago
  > by lying And well... By giving far right proxy forces in the Ukraine arms and training, so the proxy forces can then be used for clandestine operations and hopefully (so nato/us/UK think) instigate a Russian military response to which they can scream casius Beli and create more unrest in the entire area
  - kspacewalk2 5y ago
    > far right proxy forces armed forces of a country with a democratically elected civilian government
    - ukrainmilitias 5y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
- Tuna-Fish 5y ago
  Russia currently has troops on Ukrainian soil. They invaded 8 years ago, and the invasion has not ended.
jessaustin 5y ago
The idea that Russia is about to invade Ukraine is pure Western propaganda. This is not Russia's plan, and is not in Russia's interest. That this unlikely event would be breathlessly trumpeted from every corner for weeks is itself a puzzle. Some have speculated that the war-pig plan is for certain fringe Ukrainian neo-Nazis who have received training in southern USA to commence a "reign of terror" against ethnic Russians in Donbas. Supposedly Putin will be unable to resist coming to the rescue. However, recent events in Artsakh have emphasized Putin's composure in such situations. American chatterers have poor mental models of Russian leadership. Why is Kazakhstan no longer in the news?

pthread_t 5y ago

That's not the only war being drummed up: "Among the members of the global alliance dedicated to destroying the American-led order, Iran is the most vulnerable. The job of the U.S. is to defang it." [0] "With negotiations likely to fail, [Biden] better be prepared for a military strike [on Iran]." [1] [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-russia-and-china-build-up-iran-biden-administration-foreign-relations-nuclear-negotiations-11643317565 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-russia-and-china-build-up-i... [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-moment-of-truth-in-iran-negotiations-deal-nuclear-warheads-proliferation-centrifuges-fissile-11641504610 https://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-moment-of-truth-in-iran-...

keewee7 5y ago

>Even the Ukrainians aren't as eager and worked-up This is so intellectually dishonest. Ukrainian politicians are downplaying the Russian threat because they don't want their population to panic and flee the country.