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Well, here you go: "Tesla ranks almost dead-last on Consumer Reports reliability list" - Nov 2021 https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-

Well, here you go: "Tesla ranks almost dead-last on Consumer Reports reliability list" - Nov 2021 https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-last-Consumer-Reports-16632996.php https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-... HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29273140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29273140 Another test from Belgium from a few weeks ago where Tesla came last: https://www.test-aankoop.be/mobiliteit/auto-s/nieuws/enquete-betrouwbaarheid https://www.test-aankoop.be/mobiliteit/auto-s/nieuws/enquete... Translation of title and adjacent: "Tesla is the least reliable car brand. Owners of a Tesla report problems with their car more often than drivers of other brands. Those looking to take advantage of salon conditions in the coming weeks had better grab our ranking of most reliable car brands." So it's TÜV, Consumer Reports and Test Aankoop where Tesla scores poorly, and they are all very recent. Edit: "Test Aankoop is an association that informs, defends and represents consumers in Belgium. We work in complete independence, financially, politically and ideologically." - translated

optimog 5y ago
The graph of Test Aankoop also gives numbers on overall owner hapiness. Even while being last in terms of reliability, it scores 2nd in terms of overall hapiness (right after Porsche). So it must not be that bad, right?
- daliusd 5y ago
  As far as I know Porsche is not bought because of reliability. At least I never heard anyone saying that :)
  - kohlerm 5y ago
    They are potentially. If your "problem" is to decide between a Ferrari and a Porsche, you might go for Porsche because of reliability.
- hiptobecubic 5y ago
  Great if it works, but likely not to work. To me that suggests Tesla makes a cars for people who don't need a car, just want one.
  - cogman10 5y ago
    Scratch a little deeper into the reasons CR gave it a low ranking. Panel alignment and HVAC system problems. Both of those things are pretty fixable after purchase and are (generally speaking) one and done problems.
    - pandaman 5y ago
      Are you talking about all Teslas or some particular model? I am looking into the current Model X and it seems to have more problems than HVAC and panel alignment. Even the most reliable in their ratings Model 3 has dings for "body integrity" (which apparently stands for squeaks, rattles, wind noise and broken seals), "body hardware" (latches, locks, power windows etc) and "power equipment" (all small moving and illuminating stuff, probably wipers in this case) on top of the "paint/trim" and HVAC you mentioned (unless you meant panel alignment to be the body integrity issue then you get paint/trim issues).
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    Not sure how you can claim likely. “Potentially” may be more apt.
- 11thEarlOfMar 5y ago
  It's always an 'on balance' determination vis a vie what owners care about. Yes, not everything fits right in my 2018 Model 3. The right headlight is not flush with the hood. You can hear that the windows aren't secured when rolled down and you close the door. Everything else is brilliant. 95k miles in, I've had zero drive train or mechanical issues. Three sets of tires and an underbody shield that tore when I hit 6" of standing water at 70mph. Conversely, the punch when you hit the accelerator is exhilarating, takes curves flat and fast, the sound system is excellent, it's so quiet, I can drive for hours without physical discomfort, the seat material is durable and doesn't scuff or fade. I drove a 328i for 20 years that I loved dearly. I haven't given it a 2nd thought since buying the Tesla.
  - cogman10 5y ago
    As a fellow 2018 Model 3 owner (70k miles), I concur. If you look at the reasons CR gave them a low score, it's fit and finish + the HVAC system (which have seen some pretty drastic changes since our vehicles in 2018). My experience, brand new the condenser pump was too close to the frame (causing a knocking sound). A mobile tech came out, added a rubber pad, and it's been perfect ever since. When I read the consumer report article listing panel alignment as a reliability issue, I'm suspect. I'm not trying to ignore the fact that it's pretty terrible for tesla to pay so little attention to these things, especially at the price, at at the same time the issues these cars have are generally both cheap/free to repair (especially since they are often caught at the point of sale) and then done for the life of the car. Side note: My prior car, a ford edge, was WAY worse in reliability towards it's EOL (130k). By the time it got there, the fan belt had cut through the brake line (Um, wtf?), the brake master cylinder had sprung a leak, the alternator went out, the battery died, and the transmission was on it's way out, the HVAC failed and the compressor needed to be replaced. All fairly spendy repairs from regular operations. That's not to mention the regular oil/fluid changes, brake changes, and new tires.
  - throwawayt215 5y ago
    Have you tried test driving some recent electric cars by other big car manufacturers?
- anamexis 5y ago
  I wouldn't assume happiness correlates with reliability.
  - kjksf 5y ago
    So do you assume that people whose car breaks down often are as happy with the car as the people whose car doesn't break down often?
    - anamexis 5y ago
      Sure, could be. I could imagine that as cars get more expensive, "happiness" with a car comes more from the satisfaction of owning a luxurious car and less from its reliability. I would imagine that someone who owns a Lamborghini is happy about it, but they are anything but reliable. On the flip side, reliability is kind of the point when you buy a Toyota.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  > So it must not be that bad, right? Not really. Could be the case that if you're in the 90ish percent that has no problems, you love your car, but if you're in the 10% bucket you're screwed. Similar analogy: I love JetBlue, when there aren't any problems. Wider seat pitch, better entertainment system, good value. When there are problems though, it's a nightmare. Once my flight was cancelled due to "weather" (mind you it was a beautiful sunny day, and I counted one other cancelled flight on the entire airport departure board). JetBlue said they could get me on a flight 3 days later, and gave 0 assistance getting on another airline because they don't have any of the "peering" relationships other airlines have. All they did was refund my money the day of, and no compensation because it was for "weather". This jives generally with what I've heard about Teslas: people fanatically love the cars, except when autopilot steers you into a truck or a concrete divider.
  - ok123456 5y ago
    >This jives generally with what I've heard about Teslas: people fanatically love the cars, except when autopilot steers you into a truck or a concrete divider. Now that's what I call "survivor bias."
- jorvi 5y ago
  Probably the halo effect of ‘doing good’ by driving an EV. It’s like when people choose to use the bank with a less slick app, website, local offices etc but that does ethical banking. The service is objectively worse, but those users probably rate their overal happiness with the bank very high.
  - samcheng 5y ago
    The driving experience in an EV is objectively better, on the whole, than a gas car. The climate factor doesn't weigh into the driving experience. It's the instant torque, the always-full-in-the-morning home charging, the lack of smell and noise, the easy maintenance, and (in the case of Tesla) the in-car computing environment. It's not about the "smug" or "halo" factor. If it were, why would so many people be lining up to buy the electric F-150?
    - anamexis 5y ago
      How many orders of magnitude more people are buying gas F-150s?
      - samcheng 5y ago
        Looks like about 5X (half an order of magnitude) in Ford's forecasting: 150,000 production target electric ~750,000 sales F-series 2021
    - jorvi 5y ago
      That ‘objectively better driving experience’ rates almost dead last in reliability. Charging can be a negative as well, if your ‘tank’ is nearly empty it’s a 2 minute top-up with gas but a 30-60 minute wait with a BEV. You are not allowed to do maintenance on your Tesla, everything is locked down. You are literally the “smug” you are protesting. And I say all these things as a guy that wants all cars to become BEV as soon as possible (well, I’d rather have public transit be prioritized, but people are egotistical and shitty).
      - 5y ago
- actuallyalys 5y ago
  It certainly seems to be the case that reliability isn't that bad for the typical owner. Of course, if more people than the initial enthusiastic buyers start driving Teslas, the satisfaction might decline. FWIW, I did a quick calculation and satisfaction and reliability aren't really correlated (coefficient of 0.17). Fiddling with a few other models didn't find much more of a connection.
namdnay 5y ago
careful, "reliability" can mean a lot of things - having interior trim issues is not the same as DPF problems or ABS lockup
- therouwboat 5y ago
  They are not considered equally serious. Engine, transmission and drive system problems have more weight than something like broken trim. https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/consumer-reports-car-reliability-faq-a1099917197/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...
Elora 5y ago
> "Tesla ranks almost dead-last on Consumer Reports reliability list" I find this laughable. We're on our 3rd Tesla and we've never had anything even hinting of a reliability issue/getting stranded. There is absolutely no maintenance outside of consumables, which is really just tires, as the brake pads last the life of the car if you drive it as it's meant to be driven (regen); maybe windshield washer fluid? There've been a small number of minor things, like a seat belt tensioner on one of the three started rattling. They came and fixed it in my garage. 12V battery was on its way out on our oldest Tesla, car gave a message ahead of it dying (so, proactively avoided leaving us stranded by using software to interpret collected measurements), Tesla came and replaced it in my garage in 10 min for free. New cars are supposed to get Li-Ion 12V batteries soon standard, so the company is purposefully improving reliability. (Note: yes, Teslas have a 12V battery for auxiliary/emergency power, i.e. in case you run the EV battery all the way down you can still operate door locks etc). Just doesn't add up calling cars that are known to intrinsically be super low maintenance and have much lower part count/complexity unreliable. Everyone I know who drives a Tesla has the same experience: zero maintenance, replace tires every 30-40k miles or when you get a flat and that's pretty much it. One of the main reasons I highly prefer EVs is because of reliability and lack of maintenance. Something seems fishy here.
- TomVDB 5y ago
  The suspension arm of my colleague’s Tesla broke. He showed me the broken part. It was something that should never break. My other colleague’s Tesla had multiple major issues, including one that requires an engine to be replaced. They both still bought a new Tesla after that, and so did I, because they’re just so fun to drive, but your anecdotal evidence doesn’t disprove a fact about a 10% failure rate.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    I imagine you mean motor instead of "engine".
- amluto 5y ago
  My Tesla disagrees with your Tesla. Also, when something breaks, you have to put up with Tesla’s abysmal service and the black hole that is their customer support.
frevib 5y ago
And for the Dutch TÜV (Consumentenbond) Tesla also ranks last. The only brand that scores under the usual “pass” rate at 5,5/10 https://www.consumentenbond.nl/test/auto-fiets-reizen/automankementen https://www.consumentenbond.nl/test/auto-fiets-reizen/automa...
causality0 5y ago
Tesla is sort of the real world version of that old "why don't we build cars like we build computers" joke from the 90s.
chemmail 5y ago
Once you say Consumer Reports, you throw all credibility out the window. I read some of their "reports" sometimes in my fields of expertise. Basically they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Being biased is one thing, incompetency is another.
- throwawayt215 5y ago
  Say more?

optimog 5y ago

The graph of Test Aankoop also gives numbers on overall owner hapiness. Even while being last in terms of reliability, it scores 2nd in terms of overall hapiness (right after Porsche). So it must not be that bad, right?

daliusd 5y ago
As far as I know Porsche is not bought because of reliability. At least I never heard anyone saying that :)
- kohlerm 5y ago
  They are potentially. If your "problem" is to decide between a Ferrari and a Porsche, you might go for Porsche because of reliability.
hiptobecubic 5y ago
Great if it works, but likely not to work. To me that suggests Tesla makes a cars for people who don't need a car, just want one.
- cogman10 5y ago
  Scratch a little deeper into the reasons CR gave it a low ranking. Panel alignment and HVAC system problems. Both of those things are pretty fixable after purchase and are (generally speaking) one and done problems.
  - pandaman 5y ago
    Are you talking about all Teslas or some particular model? I am looking into the current Model X and it seems to have more problems than HVAC and panel alignment. Even the most reliable in their ratings Model 3 has dings for "body integrity" (which apparently stands for squeaks, rattles, wind noise and broken seals), "body hardware" (latches, locks, power windows etc) and "power equipment" (all small moving and illuminating stuff, probably wipers in this case) on top of the "paint/trim" and HVAC you mentioned (unless you meant panel alignment to be the body integrity issue then you get paint/trim issues).
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  Not sure how you can claim likely. “Potentially” may be more apt.
11thEarlOfMar 5y ago
It's always an 'on balance' determination vis a vie what owners care about. Yes, not everything fits right in my 2018 Model 3. The right headlight is not flush with the hood. You can hear that the windows aren't secured when rolled down and you close the door. Everything else is brilliant. 95k miles in, I've had zero drive train or mechanical issues. Three sets of tires and an underbody shield that tore when I hit 6" of standing water at 70mph. Conversely, the punch when you hit the accelerator is exhilarating, takes curves flat and fast, the sound system is excellent, it's so quiet, I can drive for hours without physical discomfort, the seat material is durable and doesn't scuff or fade. I drove a 328i for 20 years that I loved dearly. I haven't given it a 2nd thought since buying the Tesla.
- cogman10 5y ago
  As a fellow 2018 Model 3 owner (70k miles), I concur. If you look at the reasons CR gave them a low score, it's fit and finish + the HVAC system (which have seen some pretty drastic changes since our vehicles in 2018). My experience, brand new the condenser pump was too close to the frame (causing a knocking sound). A mobile tech came out, added a rubber pad, and it's been perfect ever since. When I read the consumer report article listing panel alignment as a reliability issue, I'm suspect. I'm not trying to ignore the fact that it's pretty terrible for tesla to pay so little attention to these things, especially at the price, at at the same time the issues these cars have are generally both cheap/free to repair (especially since they are often caught at the point of sale) and then done for the life of the car. Side note: My prior car, a ford edge, was WAY worse in reliability towards it's EOL (130k). By the time it got there, the fan belt had cut through the brake line (Um, wtf?), the brake master cylinder had sprung a leak, the alternator went out, the battery died, and the transmission was on it's way out, the HVAC failed and the compressor needed to be replaced. All fairly spendy repairs from regular operations. That's not to mention the regular oil/fluid changes, brake changes, and new tires.
- throwawayt215 5y ago
  Have you tried test driving some recent electric cars by other big car manufacturers?
anamexis 5y ago
I wouldn't assume happiness correlates with reliability.
- kjksf 5y ago
  So do you assume that people whose car breaks down often are as happy with the car as the people whose car doesn't break down often?
  - anamexis 5y ago
    Sure, could be. I could imagine that as cars get more expensive, "happiness" with a car comes more from the satisfaction of owning a luxurious car and less from its reliability. I would imagine that someone who owns a Lamborghini is happy about it, but they are anything but reliable. On the flip side, reliability is kind of the point when you buy a Toyota.
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
> So it must not be that bad, right? Not really. Could be the case that if you're in the 90ish percent that has no problems, you love your car, but if you're in the 10% bucket you're screwed. Similar analogy: I love JetBlue, when there aren't any problems. Wider seat pitch, better entertainment system, good value. When there are problems though, it's a nightmare. Once my flight was cancelled due to "weather" (mind you it was a beautiful sunny day, and I counted one other cancelled flight on the entire airport departure board). JetBlue said they could get me on a flight 3 days later, and gave 0 assistance getting on another airline because they don't have any of the "peering" relationships other airlines have. All they did was refund my money the day of, and no compensation because it was for "weather". This jives generally with what I've heard about Teslas: people fanatically love the cars, except when autopilot steers you into a truck or a concrete divider.
- ok123456 5y ago
  >This jives generally with what I've heard about Teslas: people fanatically love the cars, except when autopilot steers you into a truck or a concrete divider. Now that's what I call "survivor bias."
jorvi 5y ago
Probably the halo effect of ‘doing good’ by driving an EV. It’s like when people choose to use the bank with a less slick app, website, local offices etc but that does ethical banking. The service is objectively worse, but those users probably rate their overal happiness with the bank very high.
- samcheng 5y ago
  The driving experience in an EV is objectively better, on the whole, than a gas car. The climate factor doesn't weigh into the driving experience. It's the instant torque, the always-full-in-the-morning home charging, the lack of smell and noise, the easy maintenance, and (in the case of Tesla) the in-car computing environment. It's not about the "smug" or "halo" factor. If it were, why would so many people be lining up to buy the electric F-150?
  - anamexis 5y ago
    How many orders of magnitude more people are buying gas F-150s?
    - samcheng 5y ago
      Looks like about 5X (half an order of magnitude) in Ford's forecasting: 150,000 production target electric ~750,000 sales F-series 2021
  - jorvi 5y ago
    That ‘objectively better driving experience’ rates almost dead last in reliability. Charging can be a negative as well, if your ‘tank’ is nearly empty it’s a 2 minute top-up with gas but a 30-60 minute wait with a BEV. You are not allowed to do maintenance on your Tesla, everything is locked down. You are literally the “smug” you are protesting. And I say all these things as a guy that wants all cars to become BEV as soon as possible (well, I’d rather have public transit be prioritized, but people are egotistical and shitty).
    - 5y ago
actuallyalys 5y ago
It certainly seems to be the case that reliability isn't that bad for the typical owner. Of course, if more people than the initial enthusiastic buyers start driving Teslas, the satisfaction might decline. FWIW, I did a quick calculation and satisfaction and reliability aren't really correlated (coefficient of 0.17). Fiddling with a few other models didn't find much more of a connection.

namdnay 5y ago

careful, "reliability" can mean a lot of things - having interior trim issues is not the same as DPF problems or ABS lockup

therouwboat 5y ago
They are not considered equally serious. Engine, transmission and drive system problems have more weight than something like broken trim. https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/consumer-reports-car-reliability-faq-a1099917197/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...

Elora 5y ago

> "Tesla ranks almost dead-last on Consumer Reports reliability list" I find this laughable. We're on our 3rd Tesla and we've never had anything even hinting of a reliability issue/getting stranded. There is absolutely no maintenance outside of consumables, which is really just tires, as the brake pads last the life of the car if you drive it as it's meant to be driven (regen); maybe windshield washer fluid? There've been a small number of minor things, like a seat belt tensioner on one of the three started rattling. They came and fixed it in my garage. 12V battery was on its way out on our oldest Tesla, car gave a message ahead of it dying (so, proactively avoided leaving us stranded by using software to interpret collected measurements), Tesla came and replaced it in my garage in 10 min for free. New cars are supposed to get Li-Ion 12V batteries soon standard, so the company is purposefully improving reliability. (Note: yes, Teslas have a 12V battery for auxiliary/emergency power, i.e. in case you run the EV battery all the way down you can still operate door locks etc). Just doesn't add up calling cars that are known to intrinsically be super low maintenance and have much lower part count/complexity unreliable. Everyone I know who drives a Tesla has the same experience: zero maintenance, replace tires every 30-40k miles or when you get a flat and that's pretty much it. One of the main reasons I highly prefer EVs is because of reliability and lack of maintenance. Something seems fishy here.

TomVDB 5y ago
The suspension arm of my colleague’s Tesla broke. He showed me the broken part. It was something that should never break. My other colleague’s Tesla had multiple major issues, including one that requires an engine to be replaced. They both still bought a new Tesla after that, and so did I, because they’re just so fun to drive, but your anecdotal evidence doesn’t disprove a fact about a 10% failure rate.
- judge2020 5y ago
  I imagine you mean motor instead of "engine".
amluto 5y ago
My Tesla disagrees with your Tesla. Also, when something breaks, you have to put up with Tesla’s abysmal service and the black hole that is their customer support.

frevib 5y ago

And for the Dutch TÜV (Consumentenbond) Tesla also ranks last. The only brand that scores under the usual “pass” rate at 5,5/10 https://www.consumentenbond.nl/test/auto-fiets-reizen/automankementen https://www.consumentenbond.nl/test/auto-fiets-reizen/automa...

causality0 5y ago

Tesla is sort of the real world version of that old "why don't we build cars like we build computers" joke from the 90s.

chemmail 5y ago

Once you say Consumer Reports, you throw all credibility out the window. I read some of their "reports" sometimes in my fields of expertise. Basically they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Being biased is one thing, incompetency is another.

throwawayt215 5y ago
Say more?