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Libraries in the UK ask for ethnicity when you register even nowadays, so do uni applications. Weird.

hh3k0 5y ago
University applications probably do for reasons related to equality policies. I'm sure they have some affirmative action equivalent over there.
- Swenrekcah 5y ago
  Which is racist. It’s good intentioned, but it’s also almost the definition of racism. I don’t particularly mind affirmative action policies but I wish people were more honest with themselves how it’s really an imposition of one kind of injustice in an attempt to remedy another. The world is messy and complicated, it may be warranted, but it seems to me these kind of measures really have to be viewed as temporary measures and aimed to phase out as soon as a certain level of “target equality” has been achieved.
  - hh3k0 5y ago
    > Which is racist. It’s good intentioned, but it’s also almost the definition of racism. I tend to agree with that. I think the idea is that positive discrimination can offset previously encountered negative discrimination to some degree and level the field by doing so. I don't have strong opinion about it, but it seems like the best method we have to make a real impact. Everything else seems too slow.
    - tartoran 5y ago
      But it also could brew resentiments that end up making people hate eachother. Affirmative action should help people of a similar socioeconomic background somehow without involving race. People do need that helping hand but if they happen to tick off the wrong boxes they’re out of luck.
      - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
        Every time affirmative-action comes up for discussion in HN, someone in the comments entirely re-invents european style social-democracy from first principles just to avoid giving any advantage to African American's based on race. I'm never sure whether to be saddened or hopeful about this phenomenon. Is it a new generation growing up and realizing that race is an outdated social construct and they could just help everyone and anyone with sensible policies, or is it just people repeating "You know who the real racists are?" style talking points, it's hard to tell.
        Dracophoenix 5y ago
        I'm confused as to how asking to be evaluated on one's merits and not race has anything to do with European social democracies. Affirmative action/"positive" discrimination occurs in Europe as well.
        ZeroGravitas 5y ago
        The comment I replied to was talking about helping people from a specific socioeconomic background. The implication, and very sensible one at that, is that just because you are from a poor family, doesn't mean you don't have "merit". Some portion of an Ivy League credential reflects not your merit or potential or contribution to society, but inherited privilege, connections, luck etc. Meritocracy in such a situation is like having a fair race when one competitor has a motorbike. Yes they are objectively faster than the runners in certain circumstances, but that's not due to their merit as a runner, from a combination of natural aptitude and years of dedicated training and focus, it's because they're on a motorbike. If you really need something delivered quickly, then the short term solution is to ask the guy with the motorbike. If the aim is to get the human race moving faster in general, then giving everyone a motorbike is the answer, not pretending against all evidence that the people with motorbikes are inherently superior beings and just naturally good at running. Then you can choose the best motorbike rider and get something that approximates a real meritocracy.
        Jensson 5y ago
        > re-invents european style social-democracy from first principles just to avoid giving any advantage to African American's based on race. What "just to avoid"? Many people on HN are from such European style social democracies, there is no "just to avoid", we just think that is a much better system than the racialized democracy American democrats wants.
sircastor 5y ago
This sort of statistical information helps organizations understand how they’re serving the community.
Ntrails 5y ago
It is for reporting and analysis. "Why are 2/3 of our maths grads white men?" "Hmmm, don't know. What were our applicant demographics?. Ooh, they are only 60% white men. Lets dig..." etc etc. If you don't have the data you cannot identify where in the pipeline an anomaly starts
- ricardobeat 5y ago
  That’s the point of the entire article. It’s a fuzzy problem that can’t be solved by strict categorization like that, which is in itself a form of discrimination. You design your admissions process to be as fair as possible, not “tune it” to get the metrics right.
- Zababa 5y ago
  > "Why are 2/3 of our maths grads white men?" Why would you ask that in the first place?
  - dekhn 5y ago
    That ratio indicates that there is some biased process leading to the ratio, and that process should be de-biased. Presuming women and men have equal math abilities (I assume this is true) and equal desire to obtain degrees (not entirely sure; this is a very controversial topic) you would expect that an unbiased selection process would generate 50% male/female ratio. Again, many assumptions and conclusions in what i just said are not absolutely certain. Many departments are currently realizign they play a role in systemic discrimination, and those ratios help them understand how far they are from the mean.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      > Many departments are currently realizign they play a role in systemic discrimination, and those ratios help them understand how far they are from the mean. I hope you realize this process started over 50 years ago. Most fields turned and are now dominated by women. The few fields that are still not dominated by women are probably that way for another reason than discrimination, women are far too good at taking over fields for some discrimination to stop them from doing so.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
I believe this, and similar things in job applications, is mostly so they can generate stats that would reveal if there was discrimination going on. It feels weird because you're providing the information to the people who are being held accountable, and the idea is to get to a place where the information they are asking you for doesn't matter, but life is complicated.
- bopbeepboop 5y ago
helsinkiandrew 5y ago
They will always have an option “would rather not say” and are used for reporting. Universities in particular are keen to ensure they have a mix of students that isn’t skewed.

University applications probably do for reasons related to equality policies. I'm sure they have some affirmative action equivalent over there.

Swenrekcah 5y ago
Which is racist. It’s good intentioned, but it’s also almost the definition of racism. I don’t particularly mind affirmative action policies but I wish people were more honest with themselves how it’s really an imposition of one kind of injustice in an attempt to remedy another. The world is messy and complicated, it may be warranted, but it seems to me these kind of measures really have to be viewed as temporary measures and aimed to phase out as soon as a certain level of “target equality” has been achieved.
- hh3k0 5y ago
  > Which is racist. It’s good intentioned, but it’s also almost the definition of racism. I tend to agree with that. I think the idea is that positive discrimination can offset previously encountered negative discrimination to some degree and level the field by doing so. I don't have strong opinion about it, but it seems like the best method we have to make a real impact. Everything else seems too slow.
  - tartoran 5y ago
    But it also could brew resentiments that end up making people hate eachother. Affirmative action should help people of a similar socioeconomic background somehow without involving race. People do need that helping hand but if they happen to tick off the wrong boxes they’re out of luck.
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      Every time affirmative-action comes up for discussion in HN, someone in the comments entirely re-invents european style social-democracy from first principles just to avoid giving any advantage to African American's based on race. I'm never sure whether to be saddened or hopeful about this phenomenon. Is it a new generation growing up and realizing that race is an outdated social construct and they could just help everyone and anyone with sensible policies, or is it just people repeating "You know who the real racists are?" style talking points, it's hard to tell.
      - Dracophoenix 5y ago
        I'm confused as to how asking to be evaluated on one's merits and not race has anything to do with European social democracies. Affirmative action/"positive" discrimination occurs in Europe as well.
        ZeroGravitas 5y ago
        The comment I replied to was talking about helping people from a specific socioeconomic background. The implication, and very sensible one at that, is that just because you are from a poor family, doesn't mean you don't have "merit". Some portion of an Ivy League credential reflects not your merit or potential or contribution to society, but inherited privilege, connections, luck etc. Meritocracy in such a situation is like having a fair race when one competitor has a motorbike. Yes they are objectively faster than the runners in certain circumstances, but that's not due to their merit as a runner, from a combination of natural aptitude and years of dedicated training and focus, it's because they're on a motorbike. If you really need something delivered quickly, then the short term solution is to ask the guy with the motorbike. If the aim is to get the human race moving faster in general, then giving everyone a motorbike is the answer, not pretending against all evidence that the people with motorbikes are inherently superior beings and just naturally good at running. Then you can choose the best motorbike rider and get something that approximates a real meritocracy.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        > re-invents european style social-democracy from first principles just to avoid giving any advantage to African American's based on race. What "just to avoid"? Many people on HN are from such European style social democracies, there is no "just to avoid", we just think that is a much better system than the racialized democracy American democrats wants.

sircastor 5y ago

This sort of statistical information helps organizations understand how they’re serving the community.

Ntrails 5y ago

It is for reporting and analysis. "Why are 2/3 of our maths grads white men?" "Hmmm, don't know. What were our applicant demographics?. Ooh, they are only 60% white men. Lets dig..." etc etc. If you don't have the data you cannot identify where in the pipeline an anomaly starts

ricardobeat 5y ago
That’s the point of the entire article. It’s a fuzzy problem that can’t be solved by strict categorization like that, which is in itself a form of discrimination. You design your admissions process to be as fair as possible, not “tune it” to get the metrics right.
Zababa 5y ago
> "Why are 2/3 of our maths grads white men?" Why would you ask that in the first place?
- dekhn 5y ago
  That ratio indicates that there is some biased process leading to the ratio, and that process should be de-biased. Presuming women and men have equal math abilities (I assume this is true) and equal desire to obtain degrees (not entirely sure; this is a very controversial topic) you would expect that an unbiased selection process would generate 50% male/female ratio. Again, many assumptions and conclusions in what i just said are not absolutely certain. Many departments are currently realizign they play a role in systemic discrimination, and those ratios help them understand how far they are from the mean.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    > Many departments are currently realizign they play a role in systemic discrimination, and those ratios help them understand how far they are from the mean. I hope you realize this process started over 50 years ago. Most fields turned and are now dominated by women. The few fields that are still not dominated by women are probably that way for another reason than discrimination, women are far too good at taking over fields for some discrimination to stop them from doing so.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

I believe this, and similar things in job applications, is mostly so they can generate stats that would reveal if there was discrimination going on. It feels weird because you're providing the information to the people who are being held accountable, and the idea is to get to a place where the information they are asking you for doesn't matter, but life is complicated.

bopbeepboop 5y ago

helsinkiandrew 5y ago

They will always have an option “would rather not say” and are used for reporting. Universities in particular are keen to ensure they have a mix of students that isn’t skewed.