3 ms·

I can't really believe that devs in the ukraine make as much as in germany. Why would then work a lot of devs here? Cost of living is a fraction there.

anovikov 5y ago
Because the outsourcing industry is really advanced there... People just figured how to make money off foreigners. Typical salary for someone who is minimally capable of independently working (not senior level) is $4500 a month net. Rent is $400 a month, utilities are invisibly tiny (which isn't a surprise for a country with around $300 median salary). Developers have full time servants, gardeners, drivers etc., all in the middle of Europe. But, surely there is a terrible infrastructure and the country is in the slow-baking civil war and permanently on the brink of foreign invasion...
- chefkoch 5y ago
  If you pay a dev as much as in Germany, how are the supposed to offer cheaper services if also the agency takes a bige cut? No one would nearshore work If it's not cheaper then at home.
  - anovikov 5y ago
    Because they outsource to the U.S., and for the U.S. customer there is no difference between Germany or Ukraine. In Ukraine they also pay a lot less (if any) taxes than they do in Germany. Plus, you can exploit people more in Ukraine for sure (they are happy anyway because they routinely get 20x the median income in their area, by the age of 40 it's typical to be independently rich and exit active work). And no, these services are not 'cheaper' - people who want it cheaper, hire Indian companies.
    - chefkoch 5y ago
      Then why hire them instead of local devs?
      - anovikov 5y ago
        Local devs or local dev company? In which country? In Germany they just won't find one. There are few good devs and almost no good outsourcers. Way more in Ukraine and there is an established ecosystem - there are even "accelerators" and "incubators" for outsourcer companies. In the U.S.? Because U.S. companies will never do actual coding in the U.S. - they only have U.S. front offices. Many of these "local" companies are actually Ukrainian, with a few guys in the Valley and 500 in Kharkiv. As for local devs, then well, of course reason is the same as why dev companies exist at all: clients don't know how to manage the project or properly hire devs.

anovikov 5y ago

Because the outsourcing industry is really advanced there... People just figured how to make money off foreigners. Typical salary for someone who is minimally capable of independently working (not senior level) is $4500 a month net. Rent is $400 a month, utilities are invisibly tiny (which isn't a surprise for a country with around $300 median salary). Developers have full time servants, gardeners, drivers etc., all in the middle of Europe. But, surely there is a terrible infrastructure and the country is in the slow-baking civil war and permanently on the brink of foreign invasion...

chefkoch 5y ago
If you pay a dev as much as in Germany, how are the supposed to offer cheaper services if also the agency takes a bige cut? No one would nearshore work If it's not cheaper then at home.
- anovikov 5y ago
  Because they outsource to the U.S., and for the U.S. customer there is no difference between Germany or Ukraine. In Ukraine they also pay a lot less (if any) taxes than they do in Germany. Plus, you can exploit people more in Ukraine for sure (they are happy anyway because they routinely get 20x the median income in their area, by the age of 40 it's typical to be independently rich and exit active work). And no, these services are not 'cheaper' - people who want it cheaper, hire Indian companies.
  - chefkoch 5y ago
    Then why hire them instead of local devs?
    - anovikov 5y ago
      Local devs or local dev company? In which country? In Germany they just won't find one. There are few good devs and almost no good outsourcers. Way more in Ukraine and there is an established ecosystem - there are even "accelerators" and "incubators" for outsourcer companies. In the U.S.? Because U.S. companies will never do actual coding in the U.S. - they only have U.S. front offices. Many of these "local" companies are actually Ukrainian, with a few guys in the Valley and 500 in Kharkiv. As for local devs, then well, of course reason is the same as why dev companies exist at all: clients don't know how to manage the project or properly hire devs.