4 ms·

> If year after year kids matriculate without gaining enough proficiency [...] why not shut down the program and teach something else? It seems like you could

> If year after year kids matriculate without gaining enough proficiency [...] why not shut down the program and teach something else? It seems like you could generalize this for most of the curriculum. Once kids arrive at the conclusion "I'm never, ever going to use this," it's over for most of them. And, naturally, that's self-fulfilling. Most kids who didn't learn math ended up not needing math – and some proudly trumpet that back at their teachers later in life! Should we shut down math? Just anecdata, but among my friend group's children, I've seen a number of middle schoolers go from completely uninterested in a second language (English) to totally engaged once they discover YouTube or Netflix or a gaming community or whatever. And classroom learning is apparently useful for those kids. The last time one of my linguist friends enlightened me, the research pointed at classroom learning being really important for those who don't learn the L2 in the home. If those learners are left to absorb the language solely through immersion, they most often end up at a middling level with the language. That may be because with L2 immersion, a non-native speaker almost never gets feedback about language mistakes and so never has the chance to correct them. Instead, they see that what they say is understandable and keep repeating the same mistakes. (Maybe like, "Yesterday, I go to the store." Incorrect, but understandable.) That's not the end of the world, but it limits the speaker's opportunities with the language. Past a certain blurry threshold, they're unlikely to be hired to do a job that involves the language, for example.

netcan 5y ago
I don't think it's correct to generalize this for most of the curriculum. Most people do learn some math skills. Many kids learn more than the basics. Obviously experiences vary. Yes, there are a lot of out-of-classroom factors. I think second language learning is a more extreme case though. Many language programs seem to produce very little. Math doesn't have that kind of variance. If kids' math skills are years behind another school system's... that gets noticed and acted on. If a language program produces almost no language skills, it tends to just be accepted.
eru 5y ago
> Should we shut down math? Math teaching in school? Maybe. It doesn't seem to be very efficient, and mostly a waste of time. (And I say that as someone who has studied math at university.)
- microtherion 5y ago
  In Biology (and Chemistry), there was/is a philosophical dispute playing out over what should be taught in high school. Many of the text books more or less teach dumbed down versions of what a Biology undergraduate university student would learn in their first semesters — heavy on the theory, but hampered by a lack of rigorous mathematical etc underpinnings. My father, who was a biology teacher, advocated that high school biology should be taught largely for the benefit of the vast majority of students who would never take another biology class in their life — a self contained curriculum focusing on nature observation and on practical interactions of biology with the world. I went through a high school curriculum focused on classical languages, and went on to a math-heavy CS school. The entirety of my high school math probably helped me for less than one semester. The math of my colleagues who attended a math focused high school track helped them for maybe one more semester at most (Their drafting classes might have been more valuable). Yet my Latin and Greek, which I never studied anymore after high school, still occasionally comes in handy to prop up my vocabulary or read street signs in Athens.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    Add physics to that list. It's taught freshman year at the local high school which guarantees zero calculus is involved.
    - eru 5y ago
      Yes. Though you can do a lot of fun and useful physics without calculus. My view is biased, because I had some very good physics teachers in high school and an interest in the subject. So here again, I doubt that a typical student at a typical school gets all that much out of the lectures.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    I’m an engineer, so I went through university mathematics. I haven’t used it since… but the problem-solving ability I learned has literally transformed the way my brain works. The content of high school math is important only in the sense that it must interest the kids and might be vaguely useful later on. The real prize is systematic problem-solving skills and confidence.
watwut 5y ago
I think that the distinction is much more "what is fun or immediately rewarding" then "what rationally will be useful". Kids know they need to learn foreign languages, but until they are at high enough level adults gotta put a lot of effort into kids actually being willing to learn. It is just boring grind and most kids have hard time to entirely overcome that. But when it is fun for them, they will learn the hell of it regardless of how useless it is. Also, Netflix and Youtube are motivating factors only once the kid understands at least little bit. They are rarely eager to watch and listen videos they dont understand. I also think that most kids do actually learn a lot math in schools. Some don't and are totally clueless, but most of them are acceptably good and most of them don't make all that much fuzz about having to learn it.
IshKebab 5y ago
> I'm never going to use this I agree but I think the difference with languages is that it's almost impossible to avoid that for most people. Most children go to countries speaking other languages very rarely. I live in the UK and "learnt" French in school. I went to France twice before I was 18. Obviously there are places where it's different. I bet schools in California have some success teaching Spanish for example. But it's easier for subjects like Maths and English to answer "why will I ever need this" (even if they still usually do a pretty terrible job).
- kergonath 5y ago
  > I live in the UK and "learnt" French in school. I went to France twice before I was 18. A trip to South Kensington is probably easier for almost the same result ;)

netcan 5y ago

I don't think it's correct to generalize this for most of the curriculum. Most people do learn some math skills. Many kids learn more than the basics. Obviously experiences vary. Yes, there are a lot of out-of-classroom factors. I think second language learning is a more extreme case though. Many language programs seem to produce very little. Math doesn't have that kind of variance. If kids' math skills are years behind another school system's... that gets noticed and acted on. If a language program produces almost no language skills, it tends to just be accepted.

eru 5y ago

> Should we shut down math? Math teaching in school? Maybe. It doesn't seem to be very efficient, and mostly a waste of time. (And I say that as someone who has studied math at university.)

microtherion 5y ago
In Biology (and Chemistry), there was/is a philosophical dispute playing out over what should be taught in high school. Many of the text books more or less teach dumbed down versions of what a Biology undergraduate university student would learn in their first semesters — heavy on the theory, but hampered by a lack of rigorous mathematical etc underpinnings. My father, who was a biology teacher, advocated that high school biology should be taught largely for the benefit of the vast majority of students who would never take another biology class in their life — a self contained curriculum focusing on nature observation and on practical interactions of biology with the world. I went through a high school curriculum focused on classical languages, and went on to a math-heavy CS school. The entirety of my high school math probably helped me for less than one semester. The math of my colleagues who attended a math focused high school track helped them for maybe one more semester at most (Their drafting classes might have been more valuable). Yet my Latin and Greek, which I never studied anymore after high school, still occasionally comes in handy to prop up my vocabulary or read street signs in Athens.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  Add physics to that list. It's taught freshman year at the local high school which guarantees zero calculus is involved.
  - eru 5y ago
    Yes. Though you can do a lot of fun and useful physics without calculus. My view is biased, because I had some very good physics teachers in high school and an interest in the subject. So here again, I doubt that a typical student at a typical school gets all that much out of the lectures.
- FredPret 5y ago
  I’m an engineer, so I went through university mathematics. I haven’t used it since… but the problem-solving ability I learned has literally transformed the way my brain works. The content of high school math is important only in the sense that it must interest the kids and might be vaguely useful later on. The real prize is systematic problem-solving skills and confidence.

watwut 5y ago

I think that the distinction is much more "what is fun or immediately rewarding" then "what rationally will be useful". Kids know they need to learn foreign languages, but until they are at high enough level adults gotta put a lot of effort into kids actually being willing to learn. It is just boring grind and most kids have hard time to entirely overcome that. But when it is fun for them, they will learn the hell of it regardless of how useless it is. Also, Netflix and Youtube are motivating factors only once the kid understands at least little bit. They are rarely eager to watch and listen videos they dont understand. I also think that most kids do actually learn a lot math in schools. Some don't and are totally clueless, but most of them are acceptably good and most of them don't make all that much fuzz about having to learn it.

IshKebab 5y ago

> I'm never going to use this I agree but I think the difference with languages is that it's almost impossible to avoid that for most people. Most children go to countries speaking other languages very rarely. I live in the UK and "learnt" French in school. I went to France twice before I was 18. Obviously there are places where it's different. I bet schools in California have some success teaching Spanish for example. But it's easier for subjects like Maths and English to answer "why will I ever need this" (even if they still usually do a pretty terrible job).

kergonath 5y ago
> I live in the UK and "learnt" French in school. I went to France twice before I was 18. A trip to South Kensington is probably easier for almost the same result ;)