11 ms·

The disappearance of Japan’s “third gender”

52 points by Thevet 5y ago

mogadsheu 5y ago
That’s not really a gender role being defined in the paper, it’s a role within the male gender. I’d call it a phase, which was formally denoted in society. I would liken the title to males before their bar mitzvah being considered a third gender, a definition which very few people would ascribe.
- elcapitan 5y ago
  > As an object of desire for men and women, they had sex with both genders. The intricate social rules that governed the appearance of Wakashu also regulated their sexual behavior. With adult men, Wakashu assumed a passive role, with women, a more active one. Relationships between two Wakashu were not tolerated. Any sexual relationship with men ended after a Wakashu completed his coming-of-age ceremony. > Their most important relationship would be with an older man, which often had both a sexual and a teacher-student element. That sounds pretty much like a gender role?
  - makeitdouble 5y ago
    That’s a role that can only be assumed by one of the gender, which is not the same IMO. To pull out an analogy straight from the trash, teen girls also have a special position in Japan today. Coupled with the school uniform they have a social niche that is apart from any others, but I wouldn’t call that a “gender” nor “gender role”.
  - friedturkey 5y ago
    I think there’s a train of thought in western (and particularly Americanized society) to see everything as some form of gender grouping when it’s not. I’ve also seen people who are overly prescriptive and “liberal” with gender terms being offended on behalf of other cultures. Like people being angry about calling Thai ladyboys “ladyboys” and not “women”, when basically every ladyboy self-identifies as a ladyboy. Most people don’t go around thinking “I do X so that means I must be B gender.” But that’s increasingly common in western society, especially among progressives, and it’s wild, to be frank.
    - jl6 5y ago
      > Most people don’t go around thinking “I do X so that means I must be B gender.” It’s not completely wild if you recognize that genders are socially-constructed categories consisting of a set of behaviors (stereotypes). If you behave in those ways you could reasonably declare yourself to be that gender. This also requires you to recognise that sex is a completely different thing to gender - that is not socially constructed and you can’t declare yourself to be one of the sexes based on behavior or feelings.
      - kaoD 5y ago
        Isn't that his point? That it's applying a western social construct to explain a non-western social phenomenon. Remember: considering that gender is a social construct is also a social construct. It's social constructs all the way down.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      > when basically every ladyboy self-identifies as a ladyboy. Do they? It seems oddly English for a Thai practice, but they're so tourist-oriented that I guess that really could be what they say. The Chinese term is 人妖, which if nothing else explicitly identifies them as outside the realm of normal human behavior.
      - D0rk0 5y ago
        The only reason Westerns keep thinking this is due to their limited exposure to particular aspects of Asian culture. The phenomenon of "ladyboys" is widespread all across Asia. The second supposition, that "ladyboys are ladyboys" is simply wrong. There are many ladyboys that see prostitution as a quick, simple way to earn a living. The economics of prostitution (supply-demand) basically mean many of them choose to assume a role as a ladyboy for a while, and when that part of their life is over they just cut their hair, stop using make-up and high heels and back to the "respected" society. I can think of nothing more racist than these continued attempts to fit Western models of thought, or theory, onto other societies and their norms and values and then categorize them according to _our_ values. If we really understood it, we would accept it for what it is, and try to understand it from the Asian perspective.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Would you call the Greek erômenos a gender role, too? Now, this would actually help make sense of the otherwise puzzling notion of 'effeminacy', which was quite important to the Classical world but tends to be disregarded nowadays. So I'm not saying that it couldn't be a worthwhile perspective, it's just not the most common one.
  - cplusplusfellow 5y ago
    It sounds a lot more like sexual abuse to me.
  - mogadsheu 5y ago
    Gender role != gender Author explicitly states ‘third’, suggesting there’s male, female, and wakashu, which is not the case. It’s male and female, with wakashu as a subset of male. I’m convinced the author is just trying to get attention and be provocative/make a political statement.
    - D0rk0 5y ago
      Your "filter" to this subject is the author. You are applying the limits of the "filter" to the subject matter. Like saying... well, everything _is_ red, when looking through a red filter.
- beebmam 5y ago
  Small nit here (and a common misunderstanding among non-jews): one becomes a bar/bat mitzvah
  - mogadsheu 5y ago
    Thank you! So a bar/bat mitzvah is a title or a state of being, and not a party/ritual?
    - names_are_hard 5y ago
      Yes, exactly. It happens to you whether you are aware of it or not, although it is typically celebrated. Think of it like becoming 18 in the US - one day you wake up and you're old enough to buy cigarettes and are generally responsible for your actions. That's what bar/bat mitzvah are.
  - Tagbert 5y ago
    I had thought that a mitzvah was a religious duty or deed.
  - staticman2 5y ago
    On your "bar/ bat mitzvah" correction: The liberal, american jews I know don't talk this way. And for example here's a quote from Seinfeld: "Elaine: I need someone to go with me to Mr. Lippman's son's Bar Mitzvah."
- teakettle42 5y ago
  Furthermore, as a role, it was largely the result of barbaric cultural norms, and trying to reframe it as a "third gender" is ethically bereft. In societies where women are treated as valuable familial property, normalized abuse of male children and adolescents is also often prevalent. The same article could be written about Afghanistan's "dancing boys"; they have unique social positions, rules, hairstyles, and forms of dress, wearing clothes "similar to those worn by unmarried young women". We rightfully recognize it as sexual slavery and child prostitution, not a third gender.
  - bencollier49 5y ago
    That's an interesting parallel with St. Paul's position on sexual morality. He appears to condemn varieties of homosexual behaviour, but it's in the context of institutionalised behaviour in Roman society which possibly parallels that in Afghanistan today.
    - gatlin 5y ago
      A communication misfire I see frequently across perceived ideological boundaries may be summarized as such: Person A: "social phenomenon XYZ is being abused / misappropriated / spun in a way by people with power" Everyone else: "you are a bigot who opposes XYZ!" Person A: reasons that if honest self-expression and concern expressed with nuance yields nothing but insults in response that maybe their original position was too cautious...
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Interestingly, St. Paul actually condemns both "homosexual" behavior and 'fornication' in very similar terms, and the latter is probably a reference to the practically institutionalized pandering of female slaves as prostitutes that was also a major part of Graeco-Roman sexual norms.
- jlawson 5y ago
  - gatlin 5y ago
    What's disappointing is that even if (sticking with your example) "high school boy" isn't a distinct gender in the way you mean, there is still potential for anthropological investigation into the phenomenon of a person's different roles as they age and change, as with these other "roles" more broadly-speaking. But instead of just having that discussion it is first warped to fit into a very narrow framework of American gender discourse.
throwawaysea 5y ago
I’m not sure the Japanese concept here is the same thing as what we call trans today. This article seems to portray a more societally enforced “role” for this third gender rather than treating it as an “expression” or “identity”. But I do wonder why Western (progressive / left / whatever) views are insistent on additional genders being hierarchically related to traditional genders (like transwomen being a subset of women) whereas older societies like some Asian ones have a catch-all third gender approach that placed them alongside the two typical genders. To me the latter makes more sense, because there are clear and significant differences between trans and non trans people, so having a new category feels consistent and natural.
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  I would guess, for one we have a learned tendency to classify things and rank them. Libraries’ DDC comes to mind, where we tried to force an clean order on basically the whole universe. Second would be that christian societies have a very clear cut Adam/Eve dichotomy that I think was enforced way more than other places. Having genders hanging out of the dichotomy becomes more difficult than in laxer societies.
- cassonmars 5y ago
  I don’t think there’d be significant objection to the notion of transgender folks being recognized as transgender if it weren’t for the fact that trans people experience significant amounts of discrimination explicitly associated with that distinction, in the context of a society that perceives a gender binary.
- lagadu 5y ago
  The gender binary is arguably one of the strongest and most deeply-rooted concepts of western societies. Because of it I suspect it's a lot easier to accept that some people belong to the category that they weren't assigned at birth rather than accepting that gender has no business with being a binary system and is completely independent from sex. I see it as baby steps, hopefully we'll get there someday.
  - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aaron695 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cosmin800 5y ago
What is the point of this article? More 'minor attracted person' propaganda? More tries to push pedophilia into normality? Key points: "Gender roles in Edo Japan recognized an in-between position for young men, called Wakashu, that was erased as Japan westernized.", "Wakashu usually ranged between seven to early twenties in age....", "Wakashu were connected to sexuality. As youth, they were considered largely free from the burdens and responsibilities of adulthood but regarded as sexually mature... " so it used to be perfectly fine having sex with 7 years old kids before the narrow minded westerners "invaded" Japan. This article is not about gender, is about normalizing pedophilia.
- spoiler 5y ago
  I see how you jumped to that conclusion, but I think you're conflating two things. First, back then it was sadly very common for children to be considered sexuality mature (age of consent in some European countries is still 13). That's been largely resolved by legal frameworks today (paedophiles still exists, but everyone agrees what they're doing is bad) And the other idea you're conflating is that (which I think the article dispels) is that feudal Japan consider youth to be tied to age. For all we know, it might be a concept unfamiliar to us westerners that got projected onto "youth" to make the article approachable to Western audiences.
  - gdfsssdgfv 5y ago
    In the US, sometimes less "In the United States, as late as the 1880s most states set the minimum age [of consent] at ten to twelve (in Delaware, it was seven in 1895)." <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent>
    - cosmin800 5y ago
      - woebegonia 5y ago
        It's unclear what you're implying as you've carefully not spelt it out, but in any case posting a fact from a short-lived account does not make it not-a-fact. Respond to the post not the poster.
spoiler 5y ago
I'm surprised at how many people here seem to take this personally. A few comments who were."against" this notion made some good points, just to taint the argument with their own insecurities about gender. Everyone needs to understand that humans aren't "binary" in most things. Sure, some biological binarities exist, as do some social ones, but they're exceptions not rules. I think the raise of modern gender fluidity comes as a backlash of people being forced into two binary groups. Let's keep to simple examples (alas, I await some misguided binarist soul to tell me how the example is too simple, only to be caught in their own web of oversimplification). All men must wear blue and leather. All women must wear silky dresses. What if you're uncomfortable in leather? What if you like yellow? You change what you wear and you're suddenly ridiculed for not being a man. So what are you? What if you don't like silk? You're a mechanic and it gets stuck on everything, it easily gets dirty. You trip on it all the time. Even if you're not a mechanic, maybe you hate pink and like green. Why oh why can't you wear green? Take this sitations and apply them to: - jobs - clothes - hobbies - behaviours - interests - who you can be attracted to And you have gender norms. Current/modern gender norms are very tightly restricted. Most people don't realise this, because gender norms are both imprinted on us by parents and society, but also because they are stereotypes. Edit: And because of this "programming head start" in childhood, a lot of people fall into this without thinking or realising. People who didn't have this programming don't have a path to follow, and they cut their own path. Sometimes it ends on the same masculine or feminine path as others of their sex, but sometimes it's a unique one. One could argue that these binary stereotypes have had an advantage during more primitive lifestyles. But they're losing their benefits, and I'd argue they're holding society back because of these polarising views. I don't want to get political, but religions are making this worse. I always believed religions to be tools, both personal and societal, that helped humanity thrive. However, they've become dull, and they need to be reshaped if they want to spiritually guide society forward, instead of hold it back.
yob22 5y ago
ComradePhil 5y ago
Similar thing happened to Hijras in India during the British rule... but they didn't completely disappear and are still around.
88840-8855 5y ago
Another quote from the article: " However, “youth” in Edo Japan must be understood as a more fluid term, one that is not connected solely to biological age. " And this is why I am so very critical towards Japan. After living there, working there and being together with Japanese women I have changed my very positive opinion towards Japan. This paedophilia thing is very big there. I can name so many instances where it just grossed me out - and I am not talking about a 29 year old dude who dates some 17 year old girl. I am speaking about real paedophilia: starting from the school uniforms in middle school over anime to laws. I was myself molested as a kid and discussed this with my Japanese ex girlfriend. Her point was: "well, this man just liked you, it is a wonderful thing". Work culture, social pressure, blindly following orders, treating women bad, racism, ultra conservative government, the way they treat their historical debt towards Korea and China and so many things more. It annoys me even more that so many fellow Western people are pro-Japan and adore it and love Japanese people so much. At the same time you see the same Western people who are against China, have hidden racism against the Chinese. Double-standard is very huge. My point is: Japan has some good aspects, but most of the glue that keeps this archaic society together is worse than in societies and countries. This is my personal experience and I am triggered every time when people fetishize Japan.
- tsol 5y ago
  Really how ubiquitous is this though? Pretty much everything you mention I've seen in western countries as well. I've heard people joke about this, but I don't know how true it is in reality. It's hard to judge based on anecdotes and trends, looking at America's treatment of child stars there's some very strange stuff going on in the western world as well
- solarmist 5y ago
  I am one of those who love Japanese pop culture, but you are 100% correct. It very nearly soured me on Japan serval times as you mention it has you. Many, not just questionable, but outright disturbing practices make it a very bipolar place to live. The most vivid thing I personally experienced was going clubbing in Osaka then after closing running into a pair of girls I was dancing with at some point and I asked why they weren’t interested and the reply was that I wasn’t (physically) aggressive enough and asked too many questions. They literally didn’t want me to let them say no, so they wouldn’t have to take “responsibility” of going with me. That night _really_ turned me off of submissiveness as being an attractive personality trait

52 points by Thevet 5y ago

That’s not really a gender role being defined in the paper, it’s a role within the male gender. I’d call it a phase, which was formally denoted in society. I would liken the title to males before their bar mitzvah being considered a third gender, a definition which very few people would ascribe.

elcapitan 5y ago
> As an object of desire for men and women, they had sex with both genders. The intricate social rules that governed the appearance of Wakashu also regulated their sexual behavior. With adult men, Wakashu assumed a passive role, with women, a more active one. Relationships between two Wakashu were not tolerated. Any sexual relationship with men ended after a Wakashu completed his coming-of-age ceremony. > Their most important relationship would be with an older man, which often had both a sexual and a teacher-student element. That sounds pretty much like a gender role?
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  That’s a role that can only be assumed by one of the gender, which is not the same IMO. To pull out an analogy straight from the trash, teen girls also have a special position in Japan today. Coupled with the school uniform they have a social niche that is apart from any others, but I wouldn’t call that a “gender” nor “gender role”.
- friedturkey 5y ago
  I think there’s a train of thought in western (and particularly Americanized society) to see everything as some form of gender grouping when it’s not. I’ve also seen people who are overly prescriptive and “liberal” with gender terms being offended on behalf of other cultures. Like people being angry about calling Thai ladyboys “ladyboys” and not “women”, when basically every ladyboy self-identifies as a ladyboy. Most people don’t go around thinking “I do X so that means I must be B gender.” But that’s increasingly common in western society, especially among progressives, and it’s wild, to be frank.
  - jl6 5y ago
    > Most people don’t go around thinking “I do X so that means I must be B gender.” It’s not completely wild if you recognize that genders are socially-constructed categories consisting of a set of behaviors (stereotypes). If you behave in those ways you could reasonably declare yourself to be that gender. This also requires you to recognise that sex is a completely different thing to gender - that is not socially constructed and you can’t declare yourself to be one of the sexes based on behavior or feelings.
    - kaoD 5y ago
      Isn't that his point? That it's applying a western social construct to explain a non-western social phenomenon. Remember: considering that gender is a social construct is also a social construct. It's social constructs all the way down.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > when basically every ladyboy self-identifies as a ladyboy. Do they? It seems oddly English for a Thai practice, but they're so tourist-oriented that I guess that really could be what they say. The Chinese term is 人妖, which if nothing else explicitly identifies them as outside the realm of normal human behavior.
    - D0rk0 5y ago
      The only reason Westerns keep thinking this is due to their limited exposure to particular aspects of Asian culture. The phenomenon of "ladyboys" is widespread all across Asia. The second supposition, that "ladyboys are ladyboys" is simply wrong. There are many ladyboys that see prostitution as a quick, simple way to earn a living. The economics of prostitution (supply-demand) basically mean many of them choose to assume a role as a ladyboy for a while, and when that part of their life is over they just cut their hair, stop using make-up and high heels and back to the "respected" society. I can think of nothing more racist than these continued attempts to fit Western models of thought, or theory, onto other societies and their norms and values and then categorize them according to _our_ values. If we really understood it, we would accept it for what it is, and try to understand it from the Asian perspective.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Would you call the Greek erômenos a gender role, too? Now, this would actually help make sense of the otherwise puzzling notion of 'effeminacy', which was quite important to the Classical world but tends to be disregarded nowadays. So I'm not saying that it couldn't be a worthwhile perspective, it's just not the most common one.
- cplusplusfellow 5y ago
  It sounds a lot more like sexual abuse to me.
- mogadsheu 5y ago
  Gender role != gender Author explicitly states ‘third’, suggesting there’s male, female, and wakashu, which is not the case. It’s male and female, with wakashu as a subset of male. I’m convinced the author is just trying to get attention and be provocative/make a political statement.
  - D0rk0 5y ago
    Your "filter" to this subject is the author. You are applying the limits of the "filter" to the subject matter. Like saying... well, everything _is_ red, when looking through a red filter.
beebmam 5y ago
Small nit here (and a common misunderstanding among non-jews): one becomes a bar/bat mitzvah
- mogadsheu 5y ago
  Thank you! So a bar/bat mitzvah is a title or a state of being, and not a party/ritual?
  - names_are_hard 5y ago
    Yes, exactly. It happens to you whether you are aware of it or not, although it is typically celebrated. Think of it like becoming 18 in the US - one day you wake up and you're old enough to buy cigarettes and are generally responsible for your actions. That's what bar/bat mitzvah are.
- Tagbert 5y ago
  I had thought that a mitzvah was a religious duty or deed.
- staticman2 5y ago
  On your "bar/ bat mitzvah" correction: The liberal, american jews I know don't talk this way. And for example here's a quote from Seinfeld: "Elaine: I need someone to go with me to Mr. Lippman's son's Bar Mitzvah."
teakettle42 5y ago
Furthermore, as a role, it was largely the result of barbaric cultural norms, and trying to reframe it as a "third gender" is ethically bereft. In societies where women are treated as valuable familial property, normalized abuse of male children and adolescents is also often prevalent. The same article could be written about Afghanistan's "dancing boys"; they have unique social positions, rules, hairstyles, and forms of dress, wearing clothes "similar to those worn by unmarried young women". We rightfully recognize it as sexual slavery and child prostitution, not a third gender.
- bencollier49 5y ago
  That's an interesting parallel with St. Paul's position on sexual morality. He appears to condemn varieties of homosexual behaviour, but it's in the context of institutionalised behaviour in Roman society which possibly parallels that in Afghanistan today.
  - gatlin 5y ago
    A communication misfire I see frequently across perceived ideological boundaries may be summarized as such: Person A: "social phenomenon XYZ is being abused / misappropriated / spun in a way by people with power" Everyone else: "you are a bigot who opposes XYZ!" Person A: reasons that if honest self-expression and concern expressed with nuance yields nothing but insults in response that maybe their original position was too cautious...
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Interestingly, St. Paul actually condemns both "homosexual" behavior and 'fornication' in very similar terms, and the latter is probably a reference to the practically institutionalized pandering of female slaves as prostitutes that was also a major part of Graeco-Roman sexual norms.
jlawson 5y ago
- gatlin 5y ago
  What's disappointing is that even if (sticking with your example) "high school boy" isn't a distinct gender in the way you mean, there is still potential for anthropological investigation into the phenomenon of a person's different roles as they age and change, as with these other "roles" more broadly-speaking. But instead of just having that discussion it is first warped to fit into a very narrow framework of American gender discourse.

throwawaysea 5y ago

I’m not sure the Japanese concept here is the same thing as what we call trans today. This article seems to portray a more societally enforced “role” for this third gender rather than treating it as an “expression” or “identity”. But I do wonder why Western (progressive / left / whatever) views are insistent on additional genders being hierarchically related to traditional genders (like transwomen being a subset of women) whereas older societies like some Asian ones have a catch-all third gender approach that placed them alongside the two typical genders. To me the latter makes more sense, because there are clear and significant differences between trans and non trans people, so having a new category feels consistent and natural.

makeitdouble 5y ago
I would guess, for one we have a learned tendency to classify things and rank them. Libraries’ DDC comes to mind, where we tried to force an clean order on basically the whole universe. Second would be that christian societies have a very clear cut Adam/Eve dichotomy that I think was enforced way more than other places. Having genders hanging out of the dichotomy becomes more difficult than in laxer societies.
cassonmars 5y ago
I don’t think there’d be significant objection to the notion of transgender folks being recognized as transgender if it weren’t for the fact that trans people experience significant amounts of discrimination explicitly associated with that distinction, in the context of a society that perceives a gender binary.
lagadu 5y ago
The gender binary is arguably one of the strongest and most deeply-rooted concepts of western societies. Because of it I suspect it's a lot easier to accept that some people belong to the category that they weren't assigned at birth rather than accepting that gender has no business with being a binary system and is completely independent from sex. I see it as baby steps, hopefully we'll get there someday.
- 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

aaron695 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

cosmin800 5y ago

What is the point of this article? More 'minor attracted person' propaganda? More tries to push pedophilia into normality? Key points: "Gender roles in Edo Japan recognized an in-between position for young men, called Wakashu, that was erased as Japan westernized.", "Wakashu usually ranged between seven to early twenties in age....", "Wakashu were connected to sexuality. As youth, they were considered largely free from the burdens and responsibilities of adulthood but regarded as sexually mature... " so it used to be perfectly fine having sex with 7 years old kids before the narrow minded westerners "invaded" Japan. This article is not about gender, is about normalizing pedophilia.

spoiler 5y ago
I see how you jumped to that conclusion, but I think you're conflating two things. First, back then it was sadly very common for children to be considered sexuality mature (age of consent in some European countries is still 13). That's been largely resolved by legal frameworks today (paedophiles still exists, but everyone agrees what they're doing is bad) And the other idea you're conflating is that (which I think the article dispels) is that feudal Japan consider youth to be tied to age. For all we know, it might be a concept unfamiliar to us westerners that got projected onto "youth" to make the article approachable to Western audiences.
- gdfsssdgfv 5y ago
  In the US, sometimes less "In the United States, as late as the 1880s most states set the minimum age [of consent] at ten to twelve (in Delaware, it was seven in 1895)." <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent>
  - cosmin800 5y ago
    - woebegonia 5y ago
      It's unclear what you're implying as you've carefully not spelt it out, but in any case posting a fact from a short-lived account does not make it not-a-fact. Respond to the post not the poster.

spoiler 5y ago

I'm surprised at how many people here seem to take this personally. A few comments who were."against" this notion made some good points, just to taint the argument with their own insecurities about gender. Everyone needs to understand that humans aren't "binary" in most things. Sure, some biological binarities exist, as do some social ones, but they're exceptions not rules. I think the raise of modern gender fluidity comes as a backlash of people being forced into two binary groups. Let's keep to simple examples (alas, I await some misguided binarist soul to tell me how the example is too simple, only to be caught in their own web of oversimplification). All men must wear blue and leather. All women must wear silky dresses. What if you're uncomfortable in leather? What if you like yellow? You change what you wear and you're suddenly ridiculed for not being a man. So what are you? What if you don't like silk? You're a mechanic and it gets stuck on everything, it easily gets dirty. You trip on it all the time. Even if you're not a mechanic, maybe you hate pink and like green. Why oh why can't you wear green? Take this sitations and apply them to: - jobs - clothes - hobbies - behaviours - interests - who you can be attracted to And you have gender norms. Current/modern gender norms are very tightly restricted. Most people don't realise this, because gender norms are both imprinted on us by parents and society, but also because they are stereotypes. Edit: And because of this "programming head start" in childhood, a lot of people fall into this without thinking or realising. People who didn't have this programming don't have a path to follow, and they cut their own path. Sometimes it ends on the same masculine or feminine path as others of their sex, but sometimes it's a unique one. One could argue that these binary stereotypes have had an advantage during more primitive lifestyles. But they're losing their benefits, and I'd argue they're holding society back because of these polarising views. I don't want to get political, but religions are making this worse. I always believed religions to be tools, both personal and societal, that helped humanity thrive. However, they've become dull, and they need to be reshaped if they want to spiritually guide society forward, instead of hold it back.

yob22 5y ago

ComradePhil 5y ago

Similar thing happened to Hijras in India during the British rule... but they didn't completely disappear and are still around.

88840-8855 5y ago

Another quote from the article: " However, “youth” in Edo Japan must be understood as a more fluid term, one that is not connected solely to biological age. " And this is why I am so very critical towards Japan. After living there, working there and being together with Japanese women I have changed my very positive opinion towards Japan. This paedophilia thing is very big there. I can name so many instances where it just grossed me out - and I am not talking about a 29 year old dude who dates some 17 year old girl. I am speaking about real paedophilia: starting from the school uniforms in middle school over anime to laws. I was myself molested as a kid and discussed this with my Japanese ex girlfriend. Her point was: "well, this man just liked you, it is a wonderful thing". Work culture, social pressure, blindly following orders, treating women bad, racism, ultra conservative government, the way they treat their historical debt towards Korea and China and so many things more. It annoys me even more that so many fellow Western people are pro-Japan and adore it and love Japanese people so much. At the same time you see the same Western people who are against China, have hidden racism against the Chinese. Double-standard is very huge. My point is: Japan has some good aspects, but most of the glue that keeps this archaic society together is worse than in societies and countries. This is my personal experience and I am triggered every time when people fetishize Japan.

tsol 5y ago
Really how ubiquitous is this though? Pretty much everything you mention I've seen in western countries as well. I've heard people joke about this, but I don't know how true it is in reality. It's hard to judge based on anecdotes and trends, looking at America's treatment of child stars there's some very strange stuff going on in the western world as well
solarmist 5y ago
I am one of those who love Japanese pop culture, but you are 100% correct. It very nearly soured me on Japan serval times as you mention it has you. Many, not just questionable, but outright disturbing practices make it a very bipolar place to live. The most vivid thing I personally experienced was going clubbing in Osaka then after closing running into a pair of girls I was dancing with at some point and I asked why they weren’t interested and the reply was that I wasn’t (physically) aggressive enough and asked too many questions. They literally didn’t want me to let them say no, so they wouldn’t have to take “responsibility” of going with me. That night _really_ turned me off of submissiveness as being an attractive personality trait