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Why not? The problem is people can’t. I’m all for people learning how to code but majority of people can’t. That’s the reality. I taught coding in college and

Why not? The problem is people can’t. I’m all for people learning how to code but majority of people can’t. That’s the reality. I taught coding in college and bootcamps.

zdragnar 5y ago
I've heard it said that Excel is the world's most popular IDE. Given what I have seen of some spreadsheets, I am quite glad we don't push those people into programming who aren't interested in doing so.
- agent86 5y ago
  Traditional programming? I would agree. But no code tooling? I think you'd be surprised. As someone with experience supporting these types of people utilizing a no code platform, most of them actually thrive when given a toolset that is appropriate for the problem they are trying to solve. The vast majority of the Excel/Access mess stems from the fact that those are the only tools people have access to use. Solutions get wedged in and people get into the weeds because if they can't make it work somehow they don't get a solution. They build way more functional/sane things when given the right toolset to solve the problem.
conductr 5y ago
It’s not even that binary. I can code about anything I’d want to, but I’m also aware of lower level code that I just simply will never have the desire to learn. It really is over my head and probably always will be.
Retric 5y ago
IMO it depends on how long your willing to spend teaching people. Most young students can eventually get basic programs working in logo style systems given enough time. Make coding a core part of public education and I think we could see 80+% of people get reasonable competency by high school graduation. Collages and especially boot camps on the other hand expect people to pick things up much more quickly, and I think that works because students often have most of the skills they need rather than it being enough time to actually teach people the relevant skills. It’s almost more a filtering process than education.
- mrkentutbabi 5y ago
  You only need to spend time teaching a few semesters to have this belief completely turned upside down. I know, because it happened to me.
  - Retric 5y ago
    That wasn’t just a guess, the logo thing was from actual experience. I have also known people that learned to code over a decade that needed to copy peoples homework to get through collage. One spent a long time setting up and troubleshooting network routers before things clicked. Another learned via increasingly complex sysadmin scripts, until he fell in a pure programming job. Meanwhile a coworker of mine had a philosophy degree but two programming courses where more than enough to get him productive.
    - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
      Seems you were having some good students. Try to teach in some community college or low income area.
      - groone 5y ago
        People cannot code if you ask them to do something they don't understand. I have seen people who have none of step, if and loop basics nailed down sitting in C++ class and be very frustrated why nothing they do is "correct". They hope get lucky and get their program right by throwing some things at the wall. That is because they have never experienced successfully putting multiple simple steps together in a list to achieve something meaningful. Play some kid games where you need to put in steps, if statements and loops to move some character around obstacles. Need to give time to intuitively understand and develop curiosity about what is possible next. Then learn what is an API and what can be done when interacting with those. Then go to overview of a code file, variables and Hello world. When people are clueless and you say it is "simple" - It is over. Few minutes later their brain starts blocking everything that looks like code to preserve their ego and they lose all interest. That is result of skipping basics not giving a week to feel good about successfully playing some game with steps, ifs and loops. Going forward while still clueless and before interest for next step is in place.
seiferteric 5y ago
It's kind of amazing if you think about it that most people are able to learn to read. Spoken language I can understand since it can evolve. Then one day people started writing things down and it turns out somehow we are pretty good at reading things back almost as well as talking to one another. Programming doesn't seem to be like that at all.
- akvadrako 5y ago
  Two big differences I see: 1. Most people who learn to read start from a young age. It's rare to teach programming at 6 or incedently practice it everyday. 2. Reading is almost the same as listening, like a 1:1 mapping. So it's evolved with spoken language.

Why not? The problem is people can’t. I’m all for people learning how to code but majority of people can’t. That’s the reality. I taught coding in college and bootcamps.

zdragnar 5y ago

I've heard it said that Excel is the world's most popular IDE. Given what I have seen of some spreadsheets, I am quite glad we don't push those people into programming who aren't interested in doing so.

agent86 5y ago
Traditional programming? I would agree. But no code tooling? I think you'd be surprised. As someone with experience supporting these types of people utilizing a no code platform, most of them actually thrive when given a toolset that is appropriate for the problem they are trying to solve. The vast majority of the Excel/Access mess stems from the fact that those are the only tools people have access to use. Solutions get wedged in and people get into the weeds because if they can't make it work somehow they don't get a solution. They build way more functional/sane things when given the right toolset to solve the problem.

conductr 5y ago

It’s not even that binary. I can code about anything I’d want to, but I’m also aware of lower level code that I just simply will never have the desire to learn. It really is over my head and probably always will be.

Retric 5y ago

IMO it depends on how long your willing to spend teaching people. Most young students can eventually get basic programs working in logo style systems given enough time. Make coding a core part of public education and I think we could see 80+% of people get reasonable competency by high school graduation. Collages and especially boot camps on the other hand expect people to pick things up much more quickly, and I think that works because students often have most of the skills they need rather than it being enough time to actually teach people the relevant skills. It’s almost more a filtering process than education.

mrkentutbabi 5y ago
You only need to spend time teaching a few semesters to have this belief completely turned upside down. I know, because it happened to me.
- Retric 5y ago
  That wasn’t just a guess, the logo thing was from actual experience. I have also known people that learned to code over a decade that needed to copy peoples homework to get through collage. One spent a long time setting up and troubleshooting network routers before things clicked. Another learned via increasingly complex sysadmin scripts, until he fell in a pure programming job. Meanwhile a coworker of mine had a philosophy degree but two programming courses where more than enough to get him productive.
  - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
    Seems you were having some good students. Try to teach in some community college or low income area.
    - groone 5y ago
      People cannot code if you ask them to do something they don't understand. I have seen people who have none of step, if and loop basics nailed down sitting in C++ class and be very frustrated why nothing they do is "correct". They hope get lucky and get their program right by throwing some things at the wall. That is because they have never experienced successfully putting multiple simple steps together in a list to achieve something meaningful. Play some kid games where you need to put in steps, if statements and loops to move some character around obstacles. Need to give time to intuitively understand and develop curiosity about what is possible next. Then learn what is an API and what can be done when interacting with those. Then go to overview of a code file, variables and Hello world. When people are clueless and you say it is "simple" - It is over. Few minutes later their brain starts blocking everything that looks like code to preserve their ego and they lose all interest. That is result of skipping basics not giving a week to feel good about successfully playing some game with steps, ifs and loops. Going forward while still clueless and before interest for next step is in place.

seiferteric 5y ago

It's kind of amazing if you think about it that most people are able to learn to read. Spoken language I can understand since it can evolve. Then one day people started writing things down and it turns out somehow we are pretty good at reading things back almost as well as talking to one another. Programming doesn't seem to be like that at all.

akvadrako 5y ago
Two big differences I see: 1. Most people who learn to read start from a young age. It's rare to teach programming at 6 or incedently practice it everyday. 2. Reading is almost the same as listening, like a 1:1 mapping. So it's evolved with spoken language.