5 ms·

Deaths Hundreds of thousands to millions of civilian, Red Guards and military deaths Still not obvious.

by varjag 5y ago

kragen 5y ago
You posted that response literally three minutes after my comment. That's barely enough time to read the introduction section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution. I suggest you spend more than three minutes learning about a thing before complaining that things are not obvious to you about it. Three hours would be reasonable. You could spend the first hour or two just reading that article, or start with https://www.gwern.net/reviews/Cultural-Revolution https://www.gwern.net/reviews/Cultural-Revolution, which is only about ten or twenty minutes of reading and better written, but of course much less objective. Either of those two starting points will give you plenty of links to explore. Since it's one of the most important events in human history, one with extremely important parallels to current events in the US and extremely important influences on everyone in China, and you evidently don't know anything about it at all (except that it happened in China, I guess), it will definitely be worthwhile.
- nonethewiser 5y ago
  I don't see an equivalent turn of events in the US. Could you share what you mean?
  - kragen 5y ago
    No, nothing equivalent to the Cultural Revolution has happened anywhere else ever. Hopefully it never will.
    - CamperBob2 5y ago
      You don't see parallels with the Pol Pot regime?
      - kragen 5y ago
        Yes, history is rich in parallels.
    - frankfrankfrank 5y ago
      What is your definition of equivalent? Because I see the French Revolution and it’s Central European offshoots, the Russian revolution, the various Latin American and Asian communist revolutions all very equivalent; they all totally upended and and destroyed an existing culture and whole civilizations. If communistic elements and characteristics are involved, such a situation is equivalent to the Chinese communist “cultural” revolution of destruction by definition. You’re miss-classifying the vector as the cause. One may argue scale, but not equivalency.
      - kragen 5y ago
        "Interchangeable", or, at greater length: Equivalent \E*quiv"a*lent\ ([-e]*kw[i^]v"[.a]*lent), a. [L. aequivalens, -entis, p. pr. of aequivalere to have equal power; aequus equal + valere to be strong, be worth: cf. F. ['e]quivalent. See {Equal}, and {Valiant}.] 1. Equal in worth or value, force, power, effect, import, and the like; alike in significance and value; of the same import or meaning. [1913 Webster] For now to serve and to minister, servile and ministerial, are terms equivalent. --South. [1913 Webster] The Cultural Revolution did not upend and destroy an existing culture and whole civilizations, but neither did the other events you're describing. A big difference between the Cultural Revolution and things like the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution is that the Cultural Revolution entrenched the existing leader of PRC, while the French and Russian Revolutions overthrew the existing leaders, which is generally considered to be one of the most important things about them. The Cultural Revolution was more akin to Stalin's purges of his opposition within the Party, the Night of the Long Knives, the Salem witch trials, the Cambodian Killing Fields (as CamperBob2 pointed out), the Terror, or the Roman Dominate, but it has important differences from each of them. For example, the Night of the Long Knives lasted three days, the Cultural Revolution lasted 10 years, and the Dominate lasted about 300 years.
  - pphysch 5y ago
    Objectively speaking (I think both 'sides' are equally confused): * People losing their careers over reactionary views/speech * Historical monuments/names being destroyed (mostly relating to CSA/overt racism) * Record levels of distrust. Anyone could be a Trumpist or "far left radical", so keep your distance. * Large organizations are installing ideological offices to keep reactionary behavior in check, some going as far as "struggle sessions" (mandatory trainings) * Political violence (not too severe yet) It's not quite as extreme as the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but the parallels are certainly there and I hope it doesn't intensify.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - kragen 5y ago
      Also, apropos of this case: * major paranoia about foreign subversion (with, in both cases, some justification, but self-defeating and grossly disproportionate responses) * persecution specifically directed at intellectuals
    - KerrAvon 5y ago
      How you can be "objective," live through the past twenty years, and wind up thinking "both sides" are equally problematic/at fault for the current situation? Maybe a little history will help? America has been prone to succumb to demagoguery for a long time. Here's a novel from 1935 that you should be familiar with: https://www.amazon.com/Cant-Happen-Here-Sinclair-Lewis/dp/1974087301 https://www.amazon.com/Cant-Happen-Here-Sinclair-Lewis/dp/19... The reason it's finally happening now is that the 60-year old conservative project to remake America in the image of the John Birch Society and other right-wing nuts has borne incredible fruit. Essentially, they decided the end justifies the means and are now being consumed by the means. Here's a quick sampler of stuff to start reading up on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt_Gingrich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt_Gingrich https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/474662-the-myth-of-the-conservative-bestseller https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/474662-the-myth-of-t...
- gowld 5y ago
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward > Not to be confused with Cultural Revolution. apparently it's a comon problem.
- varjag 5y ago
  That quote was literally from Cultural Revolution WP summary, so you may well heed your own advice and read it for once. My point was that any parallels between that and events in the USA are nothing but disingenuous exaggeration. Consider just how vague your allusions are: without knowing your political views I would be at loss figuring if you allude to the rise of proto-fascist American right or lament the assault of Left woke culture.
  - random314 5y ago
    > That quote was literally from Cultural Revolution WP summary, I couldn't find the quoted passage in the Cultural Revolution WP as you mentioned.
    - kragen 5y ago
      It's in the infobox in the right margin of the introduction to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution. Why they thought it was relevant to the conversation is anybody's guess, but I guess people who don't know anything about a thing are likely to have a lot of random opinions about it. In my view, though, accusing others of dishonesty and hypocrisy because they disagree with one's random unfounded opinions is unacceptable. Last time I said that I got downvoted to -2 and flagged: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30118970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30118970
  - kragen 5y ago
    - varjag 5y ago
    - laputan_machine 5y ago
      To me, his response to you was identically snarky as your response to him. I think you could both do with being a little kinder to each other

Deaths Hundreds of thousands to millions of civilian, Red Guards and military deaths Still not obvious.

by varjag 5y ago

Deaths Hundreds of thousands to millions of civilian, Red Guards and military deaths Still not obvious.

You posted that response literally three minutes after my comment. That's barely enough time to read the introduction section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution. I suggest you spend more than three minutes learning about a thing before complaining that things are not obvious to you about it. Three hours would be reasonable. You could spend the first hour or two just reading that article, or start with https://www.gwern.net/reviews/Cultural-Revolution https://www.gwern.net/reviews/Cultural-Revolution, which is only about ten or twenty minutes of reading and better written, but of course much less objective. Either of those two starting points will give you plenty of links to explore. Since it's one of the most important events in human history, one with extremely important parallels to current events in the US and extremely important influences on everyone in China, and you evidently don't know anything about it at all (except that it happened in China, I guess), it will definitely be worthwhile.

nonethewiser 5y ago
I don't see an equivalent turn of events in the US. Could you share what you mean?
- kragen 5y ago
  No, nothing equivalent to the Cultural Revolution has happened anywhere else ever. Hopefully it never will.
  - CamperBob2 5y ago
    You don't see parallels with the Pol Pot regime?
    - kragen 5y ago
      Yes, history is rich in parallels.
  - frankfrankfrank 5y ago
    What is your definition of equivalent? Because I see the French Revolution and it’s Central European offshoots, the Russian revolution, the various Latin American and Asian communist revolutions all very equivalent; they all totally upended and and destroyed an existing culture and whole civilizations. If communistic elements and characteristics are involved, such a situation is equivalent to the Chinese communist “cultural” revolution of destruction by definition. You’re miss-classifying the vector as the cause. One may argue scale, but not equivalency.
    - kragen 5y ago
      "Interchangeable", or, at greater length: Equivalent \E*quiv"a*lent\ ([-e]*kw[i^]v"[.a]*lent), a. [L. aequivalens, -entis, p. pr. of aequivalere to have equal power; aequus equal + valere to be strong, be worth: cf. F. ['e]quivalent. See {Equal}, and {Valiant}.] 1. Equal in worth or value, force, power, effect, import, and the like; alike in significance and value; of the same import or meaning. [1913 Webster] For now to serve and to minister, servile and ministerial, are terms equivalent. --South. [1913 Webster] The Cultural Revolution did not upend and destroy an existing culture and whole civilizations, but neither did the other events you're describing. A big difference between the Cultural Revolution and things like the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution is that the Cultural Revolution entrenched the existing leader of PRC, while the French and Russian Revolutions overthrew the existing leaders, which is generally considered to be one of the most important things about them. The Cultural Revolution was more akin to Stalin's purges of his opposition within the Party, the Night of the Long Knives, the Salem witch trials, the Cambodian Killing Fields (as CamperBob2 pointed out), the Terror, or the Roman Dominate, but it has important differences from each of them. For example, the Night of the Long Knives lasted three days, the Cultural Revolution lasted 10 years, and the Dominate lasted about 300 years.
- pphysch 5y ago
  Objectively speaking (I think both 'sides' are equally confused): * People losing their careers over reactionary views/speech * Historical monuments/names being destroyed (mostly relating to CSA/overt racism) * Record levels of distrust. Anyone could be a Trumpist or "far left radical", so keep your distance. * Large organizations are installing ideological offices to keep reactionary behavior in check, some going as far as "struggle sessions" (mandatory trainings) * Political violence (not too severe yet) It's not quite as extreme as the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but the parallels are certainly there and I hope it doesn't intensify.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - kragen 5y ago
    Also, apropos of this case: * major paranoia about foreign subversion (with, in both cases, some justification, but self-defeating and grossly disproportionate responses) * persecution specifically directed at intellectuals
  - KerrAvon 5y ago
    How you can be "objective," live through the past twenty years, and wind up thinking "both sides" are equally problematic/at fault for the current situation? Maybe a little history will help? America has been prone to succumb to demagoguery for a long time. Here's a novel from 1935 that you should be familiar with: https://www.amazon.com/Cant-Happen-Here-Sinclair-Lewis/dp/1974087301 https://www.amazon.com/Cant-Happen-Here-Sinclair-Lewis/dp/19... The reason it's finally happening now is that the 60-year old conservative project to remake America in the image of the John Birch Society and other right-wing nuts has borne incredible fruit. Essentially, they decided the end justifies the means and are now being consumed by the means. Here's a quick sampler of stuff to start reading up on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt_Gingrich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt_Gingrich https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/474662-the-myth-of-the-conservative-bestseller https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/474662-the-myth-of-t...
gowld 5y ago
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward > Not to be confused with Cultural Revolution. apparently it's a comon problem.
varjag 5y ago
That quote was literally from Cultural Revolution WP summary, so you may well heed your own advice and read it for once. My point was that any parallels between that and events in the USA are nothing but disingenuous exaggeration. Consider just how vague your allusions are: without knowing your political views I would be at loss figuring if you allude to the rise of proto-fascist American right or lament the assault of Left woke culture.
- random314 5y ago
  > That quote was literally from Cultural Revolution WP summary, I couldn't find the quoted passage in the Cultural Revolution WP as you mentioned.
  - kragen 5y ago
    It's in the infobox in the right margin of the introduction to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution. Why they thought it was relevant to the conversation is anybody's guess, but I guess people who don't know anything about a thing are likely to have a lot of random opinions about it. In my view, though, accusing others of dishonesty and hypocrisy because they disagree with one's random unfounded opinions is unacceptable. Last time I said that I got downvoted to -2 and flagged: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30118970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30118970
- kragen 5y ago
  - varjag 5y ago
  - laputan_machine 5y ago
    To me, his response to you was identically snarky as your response to him. I think you could both do with being a little kinder to each other