5 ms·

Does it mean we can have open source nvidia gpu driver as well?

by zakki 5y ago

pabs3 5y ago
The open source nouveau driver has existed for years, the problems with it are mainly caused by nvidia; not releasing signed firmware for use by nouveau, not releasing specifications etc.
- xvilka 5y ago
  What about writing a tool to extract that signed firmware from the proprietary drivers and just using it? I think with some additional reverse engineering it's probably possible to automate this, assuming NVIDIA will not start changing the drivers specifically to fight this.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    People might actually start doing similar things if nVidia starts dropping support in their proprietary driver for cards that can't otherwise be usefully supported by nouveau. At that point, it'll be easy to rely on the observation that such actions are necessary for interoperability, hence justified as fair use. Not sure if we're at that point just yet.
    - nyanpasu64 5y ago
      Nvidia cards below the 800 series are unsupported by the 495 driver, which adds support for GBM, which is necessary for most Wayland compositors to have hardware acceleration. I'd say we're basically at that point.
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        The actual firmware issues seem to have started with the Maxwell series, which apparently still gets proper support. Nouveau might behave badly with lower-series cards, but not due to lack of signed firmware.
    - asddubs 5y ago
      what if you wanted to use linux with an nvidia card on a cpu that their driver does not support (e.g. risc)? That would presumably also fulfill the interoperability requirement, right?
solarkraft 5y ago
As far as I know nouveau is not limited by reverse engineering respurces as much as actual security measures put in place by Nvidia. IIRC you need some kind of key to clock the card up to a reasonable frequency.
- speed_spread 5y ago
  What an asshole company. I think they have displaced Oracle from the number one spot. I wish the people who thought this idea of locked hardware to have a terrible diarrhea.
stefan_ 5y ago
GPUs that don't happen to share the silicon with the CPU like on most mobile SoCs are a lot more independent. In the case of NVidia that means integral parts like clocks are locked behind signed firmware and open source drivers are forever stuck running them in their "just enough to show a boot logo" mode.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  Would it not be possible to distribute a program that downloads the proprietary Nvidia driver, extracts the firmware and loads it into the running kernel? IIRC there was a Debian installer for Sun's JDK/JRE that did precisely that.
  - Teknoman117 5y ago
    Nvidia's TOS forbids doing that or publishing any software that does that for others.
    - xvilka 5y ago
      I am glad they didn't manage to acquire ARM. Worst company ever to be allowed such control over computing. Having to deal with their GPU drivers and CUDA blobs is bad enough already. Pure evil.
    - grishka 5y ago
      And if someone does it anyway, then what?
      - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
        I imagine once they notice and decide to care, they sue you for copyright infringement or breaking a contract (I'm really not a lawyer; I know using a piece of software without a license is something you can sue over, but not details).
        5y ago
izacus 5y ago
Opensource nvidia driver is called nouveau and it already exists. What are you really asking?
- capableweb 5y ago
  The nouveau is buggy and has poor performance, sometimes getting blacklisted by various software as well because of this (Example: Chromium - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18834715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18834715). It doesn't help that NVIDIA is basically doing nothing to help the nouveau team to do a better job, and that their own driver is also buggy and has poor performance.

Does it mean we can have open source nvidia gpu driver as well?

by zakki 5y ago

Does it mean we can have open source nvidia gpu driver as well?

The open source nouveau driver has existed for years, the problems with it are mainly caused by nvidia; not releasing signed firmware for use by nouveau, not releasing specifications etc.

xvilka 5y ago
What about writing a tool to extract that signed firmware from the proprietary drivers and just using it? I think with some additional reverse engineering it's probably possible to automate this, assuming NVIDIA will not start changing the drivers specifically to fight this.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  People might actually start doing similar things if nVidia starts dropping support in their proprietary driver for cards that can't otherwise be usefully supported by nouveau. At that point, it'll be easy to rely on the observation that such actions are necessary for interoperability, hence justified as fair use. Not sure if we're at that point just yet.
  - nyanpasu64 5y ago
    Nvidia cards below the 800 series are unsupported by the 495 driver, which adds support for GBM, which is necessary for most Wayland compositors to have hardware acceleration. I'd say we're basically at that point.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      The actual firmware issues seem to have started with the Maxwell series, which apparently still gets proper support. Nouveau might behave badly with lower-series cards, but not due to lack of signed firmware.
  - asddubs 5y ago
    what if you wanted to use linux with an nvidia card on a cpu that their driver does not support (e.g. risc)? That would presumably also fulfill the interoperability requirement, right?

solarkraft 5y ago

As far as I know nouveau is not limited by reverse engineering respurces as much as actual security measures put in place by Nvidia. IIRC you need some kind of key to clock the card up to a reasonable frequency.

speed_spread 5y ago
What an asshole company. I think they have displaced Oracle from the number one spot. I wish the people who thought this idea of locked hardware to have a terrible diarrhea.

stefan_ 5y ago

GPUs that don't happen to share the silicon with the CPU like on most mobile SoCs are a lot more independent. In the case of NVidia that means integral parts like clocks are locked behind signed firmware and open source drivers are forever stuck running them in their "just enough to show a boot logo" mode.

mschuster91 5y ago
Would it not be possible to distribute a program that downloads the proprietary Nvidia driver, extracts the firmware and loads it into the running kernel? IIRC there was a Debian installer for Sun's JDK/JRE that did precisely that.
- Teknoman117 5y ago
  Nvidia's TOS forbids doing that or publishing any software that does that for others.
  - xvilka 5y ago
    I am glad they didn't manage to acquire ARM. Worst company ever to be allowed such control over computing. Having to deal with their GPU drivers and CUDA blobs is bad enough already. Pure evil.
  - grishka 5y ago
    And if someone does it anyway, then what?
    - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
      I imagine once they notice and decide to care, they sue you for copyright infringement or breaking a contract (I'm really not a lawyer; I know using a piece of software without a license is something you can sue over, but not details).
      - 5y ago

izacus 5y ago

Opensource nvidia driver is called nouveau and it already exists. What are you really asking?

capableweb 5y ago
The nouveau is buggy and has poor performance, sometimes getting blacklisted by various software as well because of this (Example: Chromium - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18834715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18834715). It doesn't help that NVIDIA is basically doing nothing to help the nouveau team to do a better job, and that their own driver is also buggy and has poor performance.