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I really, really want to use this -- but I urge you to put under a regular MIT or (A)GPL license. Something that's proper F/OSS, please! As it stands, I can't

I really, really want to use this -- but I urge you to put under a regular MIT or (A)GPL license. Something that's proper F/OSS, please! As it stands, I can't incorporate Hibiki into any of my existing projects because of the non-free and incompatible license, and that really sucks. Further, in a comment in this thread [0] you say that: > You can download the script and host it yourself But the license page [1] says that: > You Cannot: > Offer a hosted version of Hibiki HTML. ...which is something I'd be inherently doing by putting a copy of the script on my server, because of how the web works. You license makes using your library and incorporating it into projects very confusing and complicated. I totally understand the intent behind it, but it... just makes everything messy. --- Also: Missing </h-text> close tag in this example on line 8: https://playground.hibikihtml.com/tutorial/?page=t-expr https://playground.hibikihtml.com/tutorial/?page=t-expr --- [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30107918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30107918 [1]: https://www.dashborg.net/static/hibiki-license.html https://www.dashborg.net/static/hibiki-license.html

sawka 5y ago
wow good catch, thanks, just fixed it! Is your concern more ideologically or are you worried about actually getting in trouble for using it? happy to assuage your fears if it is the latter.
- notRobot 5y ago
  It's both, honestly. (1) I can't incorporate Hibiki into anything (A)GPL licensed, which many of my projects are. (2) Ideologically I can't get behind something non-free, even though I completely understand why you wrote the license the way that you did. Realistically all it's going to do is hinder adoption (see parent comment of mine). (3) You can say I'm not going to get into trouble, but your license says otherwise, and I really can't use something unless I'm 100% sure I'll be in the okay, ya'know?
  - sawka 5y ago
    Fair enough. I realize the AGPL integration is a deal breaker. For point 3, true, which is why I could offer a proprietary license that does say you'd be 100% okay (although it still wouldn't work for point 1).
    - notRobot 5y ago
      The problem is -- everything that I write is FOSS! So I can neither use your current license, nor a proprietary license I purchase from you! I am happy to pay for a FOSS license, but obviously that will then allow other people to use the code without paying for it, because of the nature of FOSS.
    - learc83 5y ago
      Don’t try to please everyone. If someone is a FOSS purist, they aren’t going to accept a license with any of the restrictions that prevent companies from offering a hosted service.
- dec0dedab0de 5y ago
  I think you should just avoid associating your project with open source or free software. It comes off bad when you see it's not really. Just make the license free to use except for a saas. And you'll accomplish what you want without being misleading.
  - sawka 5y ago
    Okay, I'll definitely consider that -- didn't mean to be misleading. I really intended that the license should not be encumbering for 99% of use cases. I'm actually happy if SaaS companies use the product for dashboards, configuration screens, or admin tools, etc. I just don't want them offering a service that allows 3rd parties to write and host Hibiki code. The intent was that if you're at a company and write Hibiki code, you're all good, no problem. If you're at a company and you're offering a service which lets your customers write Hibiki code that you then host, then that's no good.
    - andybak 5y ago
      Use an existing, well understood licence or else most people with even a half decent understanding of software licenses will run a mile.
      - gjs278 5y ago
- rglullis 5y ago
  What is the problem with the AGPL?
sawka 5y ago
Well, I'm obviously not a lawyer, but that definitely was not my intent when I said offer "hosted version of Hibiki HTML" :/ . I meant hosted, like offering a service like Netlify, Next.js, or Heroku or as an integrated development experience (not like a CDN). Also it is 100% fine for anyone to use Hibiki on Netlify or Heroku or any generic hosting service. Since it was already confusing, I'll work on clarifying that point specifically in the future. https://github.com/dashborg/hibiki/blob/main/LICENSE https://github.com/dashborg/hibiki/blob/main/LICENSE , tried to make it clear that any generic hosting was fine, and also 100% free if it is used for internal tools.
- notRobot 5y ago
  Even if it wasn't your intent, it does read that way. Writing precise, clear and enforceable software licenses is very, very hard work. I've worked with lawyers who do it in the past, and it takes forever. Please do consider just good ol' MIT or (A)GPL. It'll actually allow people to make use of this really cool code that you've written. As for the SaaS concern: nothing will stop someone motivated enough from writing a compatible drop-in library that does the exact same thing with the exact same syntax. And honestly there's nothing that you can do about it.
  - solarkraft 5y ago
    To expand on this: Even if your custom license is concise and theoretically great, there are legal departments in companies that will disallow using your software because they aren't fully certain about the implications of the terms. While one of the standard licenses may not cover the exact terms you would like, I would still recommend to consider using one because it makes adoption so much easier.
- Ycros 5y ago
  If you're going to create a custom license, please hire a lawyer to do so.
  - graderjs 5y ago
    or better yet just use some already written by lawyers. Check out the polyform licenses https://polyformproject.org/licenses/ https://polyformproject.org/licenses/
gjs278 5y ago

sawka 5y ago

wow good catch, thanks, just fixed it! Is your concern more ideologically or are you worried about actually getting in trouble for using it? happy to assuage your fears if it is the latter.

notRobot 5y ago
It's both, honestly. (1) I can't incorporate Hibiki into anything (A)GPL licensed, which many of my projects are. (2) Ideologically I can't get behind something non-free, even though I completely understand why you wrote the license the way that you did. Realistically all it's going to do is hinder adoption (see parent comment of mine). (3) You can say I'm not going to get into trouble, but your license says otherwise, and I really can't use something unless I'm 100% sure I'll be in the okay, ya'know?
- sawka 5y ago
  Fair enough. I realize the AGPL integration is a deal breaker. For point 3, true, which is why I could offer a proprietary license that does say you'd be 100% okay (although it still wouldn't work for point 1).
  - notRobot 5y ago
    The problem is -- everything that I write is FOSS! So I can neither use your current license, nor a proprietary license I purchase from you! I am happy to pay for a FOSS license, but obviously that will then allow other people to use the code without paying for it, because of the nature of FOSS.
  - learc83 5y ago
    Don’t try to please everyone. If someone is a FOSS purist, they aren’t going to accept a license with any of the restrictions that prevent companies from offering a hosted service.
dec0dedab0de 5y ago
I think you should just avoid associating your project with open source or free software. It comes off bad when you see it's not really. Just make the license free to use except for a saas. And you'll accomplish what you want without being misleading.
- sawka 5y ago
  Okay, I'll definitely consider that -- didn't mean to be misleading. I really intended that the license should not be encumbering for 99% of use cases. I'm actually happy if SaaS companies use the product for dashboards, configuration screens, or admin tools, etc. I just don't want them offering a service that allows 3rd parties to write and host Hibiki code. The intent was that if you're at a company and write Hibiki code, you're all good, no problem. If you're at a company and you're offering a service which lets your customers write Hibiki code that you then host, then that's no good.
  - andybak 5y ago
    Use an existing, well understood licence or else most people with even a half decent understanding of software licenses will run a mile.
    - gjs278 5y ago
rglullis 5y ago
What is the problem with the AGPL?

sawka 5y ago

Well, I'm obviously not a lawyer, but that definitely was not my intent when I said offer "hosted version of Hibiki HTML" :/ . I meant hosted, like offering a service like Netlify, Next.js, or Heroku or as an integrated development experience (not like a CDN). Also it is 100% fine for anyone to use Hibiki on Netlify or Heroku or any generic hosting service. Since it was already confusing, I'll work on clarifying that point specifically in the future. https://github.com/dashborg/hibiki/blob/main/LICENSE https://github.com/dashborg/hibiki/blob/main/LICENSE , tried to make it clear that any generic hosting was fine, and also 100% free if it is used for internal tools.

notRobot 5y ago
Even if it wasn't your intent, it does read that way. Writing precise, clear and enforceable software licenses is very, very hard work. I've worked with lawyers who do it in the past, and it takes forever. Please do consider just good ol' MIT or (A)GPL. It'll actually allow people to make use of this really cool code that you've written. As for the SaaS concern: nothing will stop someone motivated enough from writing a compatible drop-in library that does the exact same thing with the exact same syntax. And honestly there's nothing that you can do about it.
- solarkraft 5y ago
  To expand on this: Even if your custom license is concise and theoretically great, there are legal departments in companies that will disallow using your software because they aren't fully certain about the implications of the terms. While one of the standard licenses may not cover the exact terms you would like, I would still recommend to consider using one because it makes adoption so much easier.
Ycros 5y ago
If you're going to create a custom license, please hire a lawyer to do so.
- graderjs 5y ago
  or better yet just use some already written by lawyers. Check out the polyform licenses https://polyformproject.org/licenses/ https://polyformproject.org/licenses/

gjs278 5y ago