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I actually want to hear good reasons for avoiding vaccinations, because many people care a lot about that. I can understand immuno-compromised people, an under

I actually want to hear good reasons for avoiding vaccinations, because many people care a lot about that. I can understand immuno-compromised people, an underlying medical condition, for whom a vaccine may not work or may be dangerous. Undergoing chemotherapy treatment for cancer? Got it: vaccines won't help you (or anyone else) until you can get past the cancer. I don't agree with an argument from stand-my-ground, my-body-my-choice principles. I could agree with such a line of reasoning, if a personal choice did not present an immediate danger to anyone else. This is a very infectious disease with severe health consequences. No one has control over the outcome, if they choose to infect another person. Maybe it's no big deal for them. Or maybe it wrecks their life, long after the vaccine objector has left the scene. What are some other reasons for avoiding vaccination?

endisneigh 5y ago
Nobody here is advocating for avoiding vaccinations so your entire point is moot.
- reanimus 5y ago
  I think if we're supposed to treat the position against vaccination being effective as "not stupid", we ought to hear reasons why that is.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Even if it’s stupid, what exactly is saying that going to accomplish other than feigning some superiority over the unvaccinated?
  - colpabar 5y ago
    My point is that if you insinuate that anyone who holds that position is stupid through sarcasm and snarky comments, you are never going to hear those reasons, because no one will want to engage with you.
    - reanimus 5y ago
      And if your response is to compare it to presumably racist/homophobic statements, I'd say the same of your approach.
    - jjeaff 5y ago
      I've heard tons of reasons why people aren't getting vaccinated. At least every one I've heard is based on false or poor quality information. I wouldn't go so far as to call those people stupid. But I would say most of their reasons for not getting vaccinated are stupid.
- fknorangesite 5y ago
  > Nobody here is advocating for avoiding vaccinations so your entire point is moot. I consistently see anti-vaccination rhetoric on HN.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    I'm talking about in this specific comment thread.
ifyoubuildit 5y ago
Having already had an infection before you were able to get vaccinated. A recent CDC study [0] joins plenty of others from last year in showing that these people were at least as protected from infections and severe outcomes during delta as those who were vaccinated without a prior infection. Avoiding getting something that offers little benefit and offers even small risks makes sense to me. You've probably spent the last year being told these people are trying to murder your family though, so it also makes sense to me if you don't agree with this. [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm7104e1_w https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm...
- acdha 5y ago
  > Avoiding getting something that offers little benefit and offers even small risks makes sense to me. It's not that simple: vaccination is more consistent at producing an immune response and it's stronger. The confound in both cases is that it wanes over time, so comparing someone who was vaccinated a year ago to someone who had COVID last month — or vice versa! — is telling you more about the elapsed time than anything else. Getting boosted, even after having been infected, is a cheap and easy way to reliably keep your immune response high without unpredictable timing. It's much less risky than getting COVID even if you could organize the equivalent of a “pox party”.
  - ifyoubuildit 5y ago
    > It's not that simple: vaccination is more consistent at producing an immune response and it's stronger. The confound in both cases is that it wanes over time, so comparing someone who was vaccinated a year ago to someone who had COVID last month — or vice versa! — is telling you more about the elapsed time than anything else. I encourage you to read the linked study, particularly the parts about the included cohorts. The recovered cohort didn't have any kind of stipulation that their infection was recent. The text does call out waning efficacy in the vaccines, but it does not mention the same for infection. > It's much less risky than getting COVID even if you could organize the equivalent of a “pox party”. Does this have something do with what I said?
pcmoney 5y ago
How Does an individual choice to get vaccinated or not impact others? Vaccines do not stop transmission of Covid nor do they stop you from getting Covid. They merely decrease your chances of getting severe Covid or dying from Covid. Thus the decision to vax or not is clearly a personal choice.
- taylodl 5y ago
  Because if you're unvaccinated you're much more likely to require hospitalization should you get Covid. The impact to others is the unvaccinated are consuming medical resources and causing burn-out amongst medical practitioners.
  - pcmoney 5y ago
    We dont make this distinction with the vast majority of personal choices. Obesity causes a ton of strain on our health system. Should we start a class system based on BMI?
    - svachalek 5y ago
      Seatbelts. Helmets. Cigarette taxes. Drinking ages.
      - pcmoney 5y ago
        Sure but there is a big difference between finding somebody for not wearing a seatbelt in denying them medical care.
        epicide 5y ago
        If nurses and doctors were quitting and students dropping out of medical school for fear of dealing with the fallout surrounding people not wearing seatbelts... yeah, we'd probably be considering it.
      - thfuran 5y ago
Zanneth 5y ago
A lot of people caught the virus and recovered from it. Those people have immunity that is actually stronger than that offered by the vaccines. In those cases getting the vaccine is some (albeit small) risk and almost no reward.
throwawaythekey 5y ago
Just today Sweden's health agency advised against the vaccine for kids > STOCKHOLM, Jan 27 (Reuters) - Sweden has decided against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11, the Health Agency said on Thursday, arguing that the benefits did not outweigh the risks. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-decides-against-recommending-covid-vaccines-kids-aged-5-12-2022-01-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-decides-against-... I'm not super well versed in the science but it seems like reasonable parties advise against vaccination in certain scenarios. Also knowing that government bodies are more likely to prioritize group outcomes over individual outcomes it seems reasonable for individuals to be skeptical.
doubleh3lix 5y ago
michaelmrose 5y ago
> I can understand immuno-compromised people, an underlying medical condition, for whom a vaccine may not work or may be dangerous. Undergoing chemotherapy treatment for cancer? Got it: vaccines won't help you (or anyone else) until you can get past the cancer. This is exactly backwards from reality. The groups you mentioned are at much higher risk from covid and ergo it is much more important to vaccinate. The risk in absolute terms will remain much higher even with vaccination but this is a poor reason not to vaccinate. The reason you vaccinate is the degree of risk mitigated not the expectation of reducing that risk to zero.
- watersb 5y ago
  I suggested immune-compromised people as a group who might need to avoid a vaccination because their immune response isn't working. They won't exhibit an immune response to COVID spike proteins. From the virus, from a conventional vaccine, or from their own cells' production following an mRNA vaccine. There are certainly degrees of immune system pathology. If you are receiving medical care for such a situation, by all means please follow your doctors instructions and not mine!
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    I don't wish to be disrespectful but its undesirable to give life alteringly bad medical advice on a public forum. Saying hey don't listen to me listen to your doc after you gave advice that would literally lead to a portion of readers to actually die is in a word insufficient. >They won't exhibit an immune response to COVID spike proteins. From the virus, from a conventional vaccine, or from their own cells' production following an mRNA vaccine. This is absolutely untrue. Most people who are immunocompromised have an immune system that works poorly not none. They are worse off than others as far as mortality and morbidity with the vaccine and without it compared to healthier individuals but they are absolutely able to develop antibodies and benefit from vaccination. The CDC says they are 65-80% less likely to end up in the ER presenting with covid if vaccinated and boosted. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm7104e3_x#T2_down https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm... Immunocompromised people that took your advice would be 3-5x more likely to die if infected with covid and given prevalence will very likely to be infected in the year ahead of us. Please refrain from giving medical advise without first taking the time to understand the topic you are speaking on. It's more important not to spread health misinformation than chat on business and tech.

endisneigh 5y ago

Nobody here is advocating for avoiding vaccinations so your entire point is moot.

reanimus 5y ago
I think if we're supposed to treat the position against vaccination being effective as "not stupid", we ought to hear reasons why that is.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Even if it’s stupid, what exactly is saying that going to accomplish other than feigning some superiority over the unvaccinated?
- colpabar 5y ago
  My point is that if you insinuate that anyone who holds that position is stupid through sarcasm and snarky comments, you are never going to hear those reasons, because no one will want to engage with you.
  - reanimus 5y ago
    And if your response is to compare it to presumably racist/homophobic statements, I'd say the same of your approach.
  - jjeaff 5y ago
    I've heard tons of reasons why people aren't getting vaccinated. At least every one I've heard is based on false or poor quality information. I wouldn't go so far as to call those people stupid. But I would say most of their reasons for not getting vaccinated are stupid.
fknorangesite 5y ago
> Nobody here is advocating for avoiding vaccinations so your entire point is moot. I consistently see anti-vaccination rhetoric on HN.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  I'm talking about in this specific comment thread.

ifyoubuildit 5y ago

Having already had an infection before you were able to get vaccinated. A recent CDC study [0] joins plenty of others from last year in showing that these people were at least as protected from infections and severe outcomes during delta as those who were vaccinated without a prior infection. Avoiding getting something that offers little benefit and offers even small risks makes sense to me. You've probably spent the last year being told these people are trying to murder your family though, so it also makes sense to me if you don't agree with this. [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm7104e1_w https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm...

acdha 5y ago
> Avoiding getting something that offers little benefit and offers even small risks makes sense to me. It's not that simple: vaccination is more consistent at producing an immune response and it's stronger. The confound in both cases is that it wanes over time, so comparing someone who was vaccinated a year ago to someone who had COVID last month — or vice versa! — is telling you more about the elapsed time than anything else. Getting boosted, even after having been infected, is a cheap and easy way to reliably keep your immune response high without unpredictable timing. It's much less risky than getting COVID even if you could organize the equivalent of a “pox party”.
- ifyoubuildit 5y ago
  > It's not that simple: vaccination is more consistent at producing an immune response and it's stronger. The confound in both cases is that it wanes over time, so comparing someone who was vaccinated a year ago to someone who had COVID last month — or vice versa! — is telling you more about the elapsed time than anything else. I encourage you to read the linked study, particularly the parts about the included cohorts. The recovered cohort didn't have any kind of stipulation that their infection was recent. The text does call out waning efficacy in the vaccines, but it does not mention the same for infection. > It's much less risky than getting COVID even if you could organize the equivalent of a “pox party”. Does this have something do with what I said?

pcmoney 5y ago

How Does an individual choice to get vaccinated or not impact others? Vaccines do not stop transmission of Covid nor do they stop you from getting Covid. They merely decrease your chances of getting severe Covid or dying from Covid. Thus the decision to vax or not is clearly a personal choice.

taylodl 5y ago
Because if you're unvaccinated you're much more likely to require hospitalization should you get Covid. The impact to others is the unvaccinated are consuming medical resources and causing burn-out amongst medical practitioners.
- pcmoney 5y ago
  We dont make this distinction with the vast majority of personal choices. Obesity causes a ton of strain on our health system. Should we start a class system based on BMI?
  - svachalek 5y ago
    Seatbelts. Helmets. Cigarette taxes. Drinking ages.
    - pcmoney 5y ago
      Sure but there is a big difference between finding somebody for not wearing a seatbelt in denying them medical care.
      - epicide 5y ago
        If nurses and doctors were quitting and students dropping out of medical school for fear of dealing with the fallout surrounding people not wearing seatbelts... yeah, we'd probably be considering it.
    - thfuran 5y ago

Zanneth 5y ago

A lot of people caught the virus and recovered from it. Those people have immunity that is actually stronger than that offered by the vaccines. In those cases getting the vaccine is some (albeit small) risk and almost no reward.

throwawaythekey 5y ago

Just today Sweden's health agency advised against the vaccine for kids > STOCKHOLM, Jan 27 (Reuters) - Sweden has decided against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11, the Health Agency said on Thursday, arguing that the benefits did not outweigh the risks. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-decides-against-recommending-covid-vaccines-kids-aged-5-12-2022-01-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-decides-against-... I'm not super well versed in the science but it seems like reasonable parties advise against vaccination in certain scenarios. Also knowing that government bodies are more likely to prioritize group outcomes over individual outcomes it seems reasonable for individuals to be skeptical.

doubleh3lix 5y ago

michaelmrose 5y ago

> I can understand immuno-compromised people, an underlying medical condition, for whom a vaccine may not work or may be dangerous. Undergoing chemotherapy treatment for cancer? Got it: vaccines won't help you (or anyone else) until you can get past the cancer. This is exactly backwards from reality. The groups you mentioned are at much higher risk from covid and ergo it is much more important to vaccinate. The risk in absolute terms will remain much higher even with vaccination but this is a poor reason not to vaccinate. The reason you vaccinate is the degree of risk mitigated not the expectation of reducing that risk to zero.

watersb 5y ago
I suggested immune-compromised people as a group who might need to avoid a vaccination because their immune response isn't working. They won't exhibit an immune response to COVID spike proteins. From the virus, from a conventional vaccine, or from their own cells' production following an mRNA vaccine. There are certainly degrees of immune system pathology. If you are receiving medical care for such a situation, by all means please follow your doctors instructions and not mine!
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  I don't wish to be disrespectful but its undesirable to give life alteringly bad medical advice on a public forum. Saying hey don't listen to me listen to your doc after you gave advice that would literally lead to a portion of readers to actually die is in a word insufficient. >They won't exhibit an immune response to COVID spike proteins. From the virus, from a conventional vaccine, or from their own cells' production following an mRNA vaccine. This is absolutely untrue. Most people who are immunocompromised have an immune system that works poorly not none. They are worse off than others as far as mortality and morbidity with the vaccine and without it compared to healthier individuals but they are absolutely able to develop antibodies and benefit from vaccination. The CDC says they are 65-80% less likely to end up in the ER presenting with covid if vaccinated and boosted. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm7104e3_x#T2_down https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm... Immunocompromised people that took your advice would be 3-5x more likely to die if infected with covid and given prevalence will very likely to be infected in the year ahead of us. Please refrain from giving medical advise without first taking the time to understand the topic you are speaking on. It's more important not to spread health misinformation than chat on business and tech.