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What? Do masks reduce infection rates? If yes, mandates work. If no, mandates don’t. Spoiler: they do. [0] This is pants-on-head stupid, and has nothing at

What? Do masks reduce infection rates? If yes, mandates work. If no, mandates don’t. Spoiler: they do. [0] This is pants-on-head stupid, and has nothing at all to do with politics. Mandates increase adoption rates of measures that are proven to help, and trying to manipulate the situation to say otherwise is the problem, not the mandate. Anyone opposing masking in schools at this point is literally choosing to risk killing children for stupid political points, and should be profoundly ashamed of their behavior. [0] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i...

wrycoder 5y ago
Exec summary: N95s work. Others, not so much, and less than we’ve been claiming up until now.
cheeseomlit 5y ago
The chance of a child dying from coronavirus is infinitesimal, the response should be proportional.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  It's only infinitesimal due to all of the precautions being taken. Remove those precautions, and more children will die. Also pretty great, you're cool with a couple dozen kids dying because otherwise some kids might be mildly inconvenienced by wearing a mask. The discomfort is infinitesimal, the response should be proportional.
  - TurkishPoptart 5y ago
    More children dealing with Covidism (it's a cult at this point) enforced in schools are going to off themselves from the psychological abuse of being denied a social life than will be saved by enforcing cloth mask policy.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      Luckily Covidism isn't real, so it's not very harmful to children.
  - brimble 5y ago
    I've been pro-masking-in-schools for other reasons (including the practical reality that many schools would have had to shut down without it, since many teachers would have just quit—I know a lot of teachers, and whether you think it's right or wrong, that was going to happen, last school year especially, if precautions like masking, distancing, and long quarantine periods hadn't been enforced) but the risk specifically to kids under ~12 has been low enough not to trigger my "this is significantly-enough riskier than the average time a kid spends being driven around in a car in a given year, that I should worry about it" alarm pretty much throughout the pandemic. I looked into it when the first semi-reliable mortality numbers started to come in (I have some young kids, so of course I did) and it seemed well below nearly anyone's freak-out threshold, except for kids with other risk factors, some of whom probably shouldn't have been in school at all for any of this.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      Right, but you aren't really someone who should have much of a say over this, and neither are any parents. The people most knowledgable about this topic are (though not universally) arriving at the conclusion that children should continue to wear masks. Besides, wearing a mask is not exactly a heavy burden to bear. Yes, it's annoying, but the consequences of not doing so are also annoying, and in more than zero cases deadly. It's such a low burden, that it's almost silly to think about not doing it, given the current situation. Honestly, it just seems like parents are taking out their frustrations about the situation on other people who are also stuck in this situation. It's absolutely bananas, how acrimonious this has gotten, all because political actors saw a way to divide the country in a way that benefitted them.
      - brimble 5y ago
        > Besides, wearing a mask is not exactly a heavy burden to bear. Yes, it's annoying, but the consequences of not doing so are also annoying, and in more than zero cases deadly. Sure, but tons of things are deadly in a non-zero number of cases, which most people give no thought to. Micromorts are everywhere. I've been baffled at the strong anti-mask reaction and the way so many people've wanted to toss mask mandates and other measures out the second things even slightly improve, but if current trends continue (Omicron burning out, the virus generally getting less-bad, vaccinations continuing to be administered) I'll have (weakly, without really caring that much) joined team-no-mask-mandates-in-schools by next school year. My kids have been champs at wearing them but it's clear they're a (minor) problem in school, from the muffling effect if nothing else, and that compliance and good mask-wearing generally is pretty shit among younger kids anyway. I think we're probably past the cost/reward tipping point already, but again, I've tended to favor sticking with safety measures until we're extra sure, if only to avoid policy change whiplash. OTOH I kind of love masks and hope it remains non-weird to go out in public in one. Two years of no illnesses in our house has been awesome.
johnnyb9 5y ago
If the childhood mortality risk associated with Covid is comparable to the flu (which seems to be the case) why weren't we masking every child before Covid?
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Because the Covid mortality risk for children is already with masks, compared to without masks for the flu. Also, there are considerations other than specifically a child's death that are relevant here, like who that child can spread it to and what negative longterm effects surviving COVID-19 carry, neither of which are as pronounced or unknown as with the flu. But you knew that already, didn't you?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - nradov 5y ago
    According to the CDC the COVID-19 infection fatality rate for children is 0.002%. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd... Children can spread the virus to adults, but adults who want to be vaccinated have been for months now. And since everyone will be exposed anyway it hardly matters who does the exposing. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      How many children are there in the US? I'll let you pick the number you'd like to multiply by 0.00002, to get the number of children you're okay with killing.
      - nradov 5y ago
        It's easy to act morally superior and make cheap emotional arguments for when you're not the one who has to make hard decisions. All lives have value, but no life has infinite value. You can't seriously expect the majority to endure perpetual mandates and restrictions just to provide some limited, temporary protection to a small minority who are vulnerable due to risk factors like obesity. https://reason.com/2022/01/03/cdc-covid-19-children-hospitalization-obesity-teenagers/ https://reason.com/2022/01/03/cdc-covid-19-children-hospital... And in the long run it won't make any difference anyway. Everyone will be exposed regardless of whether or not schoolchildren are subjected to mask mandates. So what's the point of continuing the charade? https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646
dymk 5y ago
More children will probably die in the years to come by suicide due to overburdensome restrictions and nuked social development than by COVID.
meragrin_ 5y ago
Um, it says "can" and not "do". It says "can" because it depends entirely on the person wearing it. Trained professionals in a short term controlled environment, I am sure they work great. Kids in a school, not worth it. The neglect in "frequent hand-washing", "physical distancing", and other habits are going to lay waste to any positive impact the masks may have. No one is going to spend the time to instill the necessary habits to make masks worthwhile in school.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  So teach the children how to wear masks. We don't let kids shit on the floor because they don't innately know how to use toilets...
  - meragrin_ 5y ago
    Who's going to teach them? Parents aren't going to have time or will miss critical areas. Teachers won't want to do it. If teachers do attempt it, it would likely be weeks or months of education down the drain since they'll be constantly taking breaks to correct students one by one.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      Who, in a school, I wonder, could possibly teach children something.... ...yeah, it'd be teachers teaching the children, and it would take a lot less time than weeks or months.
      - meragrin_ 5y ago
        No, no it would not. Most of it would be breaking thoughtless behavior. Johnny you have your fingers in your eyes again. Joan, did you wash your hands before and after smearing that lip gloss on? Etc... It is all pretty much worthless considering all the unmasked children gathered for lunch.
        5y ago
heisenbit 5y ago
Sadly they are not just killing children but children are clearly one of the most important vectors carrying the virus from family to family. Childcare and schools are the super nodes in an otherwise socially distanced network. Any effort to slow down the spread in these places will be multiplied across the whole population. Considering the breakdown of medical care system not doing anything right now is irresponsible.

wrycoder 5y ago

Exec summary: N95s work. Others, not so much, and less than we’ve been claiming up until now.

cheeseomlit 5y ago

The chance of a child dying from coronavirus is infinitesimal, the response should be proportional.

TameAntelope 5y ago
It's only infinitesimal due to all of the precautions being taken. Remove those precautions, and more children will die. Also pretty great, you're cool with a couple dozen kids dying because otherwise some kids might be mildly inconvenienced by wearing a mask. The discomfort is infinitesimal, the response should be proportional.
- TurkishPoptart 5y ago
  More children dealing with Covidism (it's a cult at this point) enforced in schools are going to off themselves from the psychological abuse of being denied a social life than will be saved by enforcing cloth mask policy.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    Luckily Covidism isn't real, so it's not very harmful to children.
- brimble 5y ago
  I've been pro-masking-in-schools for other reasons (including the practical reality that many schools would have had to shut down without it, since many teachers would have just quit—I know a lot of teachers, and whether you think it's right or wrong, that was going to happen, last school year especially, if precautions like masking, distancing, and long quarantine periods hadn't been enforced) but the risk specifically to kids under ~12 has been low enough not to trigger my "this is significantly-enough riskier than the average time a kid spends being driven around in a car in a given year, that I should worry about it" alarm pretty much throughout the pandemic. I looked into it when the first semi-reliable mortality numbers started to come in (I have some young kids, so of course I did) and it seemed well below nearly anyone's freak-out threshold, except for kids with other risk factors, some of whom probably shouldn't have been in school at all for any of this.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    Right, but you aren't really someone who should have much of a say over this, and neither are any parents. The people most knowledgable about this topic are (though not universally) arriving at the conclusion that children should continue to wear masks. Besides, wearing a mask is not exactly a heavy burden to bear. Yes, it's annoying, but the consequences of not doing so are also annoying, and in more than zero cases deadly. It's such a low burden, that it's almost silly to think about not doing it, given the current situation. Honestly, it just seems like parents are taking out their frustrations about the situation on other people who are also stuck in this situation. It's absolutely bananas, how acrimonious this has gotten, all because political actors saw a way to divide the country in a way that benefitted them.
    - brimble 5y ago
      > Besides, wearing a mask is not exactly a heavy burden to bear. Yes, it's annoying, but the consequences of not doing so are also annoying, and in more than zero cases deadly. Sure, but tons of things are deadly in a non-zero number of cases, which most people give no thought to. Micromorts are everywhere. I've been baffled at the strong anti-mask reaction and the way so many people've wanted to toss mask mandates and other measures out the second things even slightly improve, but if current trends continue (Omicron burning out, the virus generally getting less-bad, vaccinations continuing to be administered) I'll have (weakly, without really caring that much) joined team-no-mask-mandates-in-schools by next school year. My kids have been champs at wearing them but it's clear they're a (minor) problem in school, from the muffling effect if nothing else, and that compliance and good mask-wearing generally is pretty shit among younger kids anyway. I think we're probably past the cost/reward tipping point already, but again, I've tended to favor sticking with safety measures until we're extra sure, if only to avoid policy change whiplash. OTOH I kind of love masks and hope it remains non-weird to go out in public in one. Two years of no illnesses in our house has been awesome.

johnnyb9 5y ago

If the childhood mortality risk associated with Covid is comparable to the flu (which seems to be the case) why weren't we masking every child before Covid?

TameAntelope 5y ago
Because the Covid mortality risk for children is already with masks, compared to without masks for the flu. Also, there are considerations other than specifically a child's death that are relevant here, like who that child can spread it to and what negative longterm effects surviving COVID-19 carry, neither of which are as pronounced or unknown as with the flu. But you knew that already, didn't you?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- nradov 5y ago
  According to the CDC the COVID-19 infection fatality rate for children is 0.002%. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd... Children can spread the virus to adults, but adults who want to be vaccinated have been for months now. And since everyone will be exposed anyway it hardly matters who does the exposing. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    How many children are there in the US? I'll let you pick the number you'd like to multiply by 0.00002, to get the number of children you're okay with killing.
    - nradov 5y ago
      It's easy to act morally superior and make cheap emotional arguments for when you're not the one who has to make hard decisions. All lives have value, but no life has infinite value. You can't seriously expect the majority to endure perpetual mandates and restrictions just to provide some limited, temporary protection to a small minority who are vulnerable due to risk factors like obesity. https://reason.com/2022/01/03/cdc-covid-19-children-hospitalization-obesity-teenagers/ https://reason.com/2022/01/03/cdc-covid-19-children-hospital... And in the long run it won't make any difference anyway. Everyone will be exposed regardless of whether or not schoolchildren are subjected to mask mandates. So what's the point of continuing the charade? https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646

dymk 5y ago

More children will probably die in the years to come by suicide due to overburdensome restrictions and nuked social development than by COVID.

meragrin_ 5y ago

Um, it says "can" and not "do". It says "can" because it depends entirely on the person wearing it. Trained professionals in a short term controlled environment, I am sure they work great. Kids in a school, not worth it. The neglect in "frequent hand-washing", "physical distancing", and other habits are going to lay waste to any positive impact the masks may have. No one is going to spend the time to instill the necessary habits to make masks worthwhile in school.

TameAntelope 5y ago
So teach the children how to wear masks. We don't let kids shit on the floor because they don't innately know how to use toilets...
- meragrin_ 5y ago
  Who's going to teach them? Parents aren't going to have time or will miss critical areas. Teachers won't want to do it. If teachers do attempt it, it would likely be weeks or months of education down the drain since they'll be constantly taking breaks to correct students one by one.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    Who, in a school, I wonder, could possibly teach children something.... ...yeah, it'd be teachers teaching the children, and it would take a lot less time than weeks or months.
    - meragrin_ 5y ago
      No, no it would not. Most of it would be breaking thoughtless behavior. Johnny you have your fingers in your eyes again. Joan, did you wash your hands before and after smearing that lip gloss on? Etc... It is all pretty much worthless considering all the unmasked children gathered for lunch.
      - 5y ago

heisenbit 5y ago

Sadly they are not just killing children but children are clearly one of the most important vectors carrying the virus from family to family. Childcare and schools are the super nodes in an otherwise socially distanced network. Any effort to slow down the spread in these places will be multiplied across the whole population. Considering the breakdown of medical care system not doing anything right now is irresponsible.