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If leetcode is intended to avoid discrimination, in my opinion it fails miserably. As the parent poster mentioned, it certainly rules out people that don't have

If leetcode is intended to avoid discrimination, in my opinion it fails miserably. As the parent poster mentioned, it certainly rules out people that don't have the resources to study, but it also rules out another class of people prone to panic disorders. I'll share my leetcode horror story to illustrate. At the time, I had been coding for 15 years in multiple languages. Out of the blue I got poked by a Facebook recruiter and on a lark decided to go through the process. I made it through the phone calls and screen-share coding sessions just fine. I went onsite and had a several interviews that went swimmingly. Then near the end of the day, I ended up getting a whiteboard coding challenge that involved pretty simple array manipulation and my brain absolutely locked up. In retrospect it was comical, but at the time it was incredibly humiliating. There I was just alternately staring at the whiteboard and the interviewer with what I can only imagine to be the most hopeless expression. My brain fog absolutely impenetrable. At this point in my life, I'm fairly familiar with the condition. Basically for some random reason, the thought pops into your head just how disastrous it would be if you failed at this thing you're being asked to do. Then your consciousness inevitably becomes obsessed with this thought and it's all you can think about. You start panicking and soon you have absolutely zero mental bandwidth to accomplish the task and your mind is basically singularly focused with getting out of this terrible situation. It sucks. So, I'm always a little annoyed when I hear people say, "what's the big deal with a little leetcode?" I mean, I get it, if I actually could not solve those problems, I would not be eligible for the job. But the reality of whiteboard leetcode is that you're not screening for people that can code, you're screening out people that can have panic attacks. In my opinion, it is borderline disability discrimination.

comprev 5y ago
I experienced this recently in a surprise 'shared screen' coding exercise the interviewers threw in at the last minute. I couldn't even remember how to write a for loop in bash, something so familiar it would be like asking me to recite the alphabet. Utterly humiliating yet comical experience looking back.
- d0gsg0w00f 5y ago
  If it makes you feel any better, I can never remember BASH syntax. I have a gist where I keep all the common junk like for loops and array manipulation. Never had that problem in other languages as I can generally remember after 3 or 4 repetitions but my brain just can't grasp BASH syntax.
  - mox1 5y ago
    BASH is the most unforgiving syntax on earth, I would never even try and memorize that stuff.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - wing-_-nuts 5y ago
      The correct way to write more than 5 lines of bash is to delete the file and write it in python. You will thank yourself when you have to modify it later.
  - mrexroad 5y ago
    BASH and Regular expression syntax are two things that mysteriously expire from my memory after two weeks. It’s almost comical.
- brimble 5y ago
  At this point I'm convinced "candidate froze up" is the cause of most of the cases behind the "LOL 2/3 of our candidates can't even write a for loop" stories. I think it's really common.
  - sanderjd 5y ago
    YES! If it seems shocking that so many experienced developers can't even do fizzbuzz, that's because it's BS; interviews just suck.
Dig1t 5y ago
>You start panicking and soon you have absolutely zero mental bandwidth to accomplish the task and your mind is basically singularly focused with getting out of this terrible situation This is such a relatable description. I don't think you even need a panic disorder to have this happen to you, this has happened to me a handful of times and it's absolutely the worst. It really is humiliating, totally ruins your day and you end up kicking yourself for several days after. I think this is just something that a lot of people do, like stage fright or something. The only way I know to avoid this is to do a lot of interviews with different companies that you don't really care about to get more confidence before you finally do get to the interview you care about, just so you don't choke during the one you want.
- jliptzin 5y ago
  No. Some people have panic and anxiety disorders and need professional help and/or medications to help them. It is this kind of tone deaf advice, “just prepare more, you’ll eventually get it!” that prevents people with a panic disorder from seeking professional help for years. It is like telling someone with diabetes to just try harder to produce insulin.
  - ggff67 5y ago
    And how beneficial is telling people they have a mental disorder if they experience common issues that even healthy people experience? A mental disorder has to significantly impact your life for a long period. A symptom list that consists solely of freezing up when put on the spot in a rare high-stakes situation is not going to qualify. Any teacher can tell you this happens to everyone. Stop right in the middle of lecture, point at one student suddenly, and ask them a quick question that demands a quick answer and wait. The most common response will be "uh!uh!..." even when they know the answer. It's about the situation itself that people weren't ready for, not the specific facts they were asked about. You indeed need to practice retrieving information under the particular circumstances to build the confidence to not freeze up like that.
    - dang 5y ago
gopher_space 5y ago
Meanwhile on the job nobody is surprised or angry if you need to look up basics because they know you have five languages under your belt and are actively using three of them.
- sanderjd 5y ago
  Yeah exactly this. "Figure stuff out without looking anything up or running test cases to see what they produce or going on a walk to think about it" is just not a useful skillset at all. I have zero, and I mean zero, times done actual work under those conditions. Having said that, I am sympathetic to companies not knowing what to do that is better. There are real tradeoffs with all approaches. I kind of think if I were to design the hiring system from scratch I would 1. Hire essentially anyone interested at the entry level for low paying 6 months apprenticeships, and 2. Hire more senior people based on their resume alone, with aggressive use of performance improvement plans for underperformance after 6 month or so probationary periods. I'm sure this idea sucks too.
Godelization 5y ago
If you as a hiring manager have the choice to pick between two candidates, one of whom stays cool and productive under pressure, and the other who goes blank in emergencies, which would you prefer to have on your team? Stressful situations can occur in software engineering, including for example a moment where you realize production services are broken because of code you just deployed.
- brimble 5y ago
  Interview pressure is nothing like an emergency. I'm cool as a cucumber in an emergency. Hell, I kind of love them. Interviews are another thing entirely. [EDIT] What I'd liken an interview to isn't an emergency, but a date, a visit to the bank for a mortgage application when you're very much not sure whether you'll get it, participating in a talent show, and shopping for a car, all rolled in to one. That's closer to what it is, than an emergency. That also makes it very unlike nearly all activity anyone engages in at work, emergency or routine, social or solo, except for certain high-pressure sales or top executive jobs, maybe.
  - porknubbins 5y ago
    I’m normally cool under pressure and able to solve technical problems quickly. But in a situation where what matters isn’t actually solving the problem but evaluating my performance and my brain goes into overdrive with perfectionism/meta thinking about what they are thinking about me to the point where I sometimes can’t even do basic math.
    - xkgt 5y ago
      Exactly, I have been in such high pressure situations several times with directors and CIOs breathing down my neck, but surprisingly I am quite composed in such scenarios. Severity of the problem at hand is in fact liberating as it is easier to focus. But that is not the case with interviews, when there is a strong "me" factor in the thought process.
  - jjav 5y ago
    > a date, a visit to the bank for a mortgage application when you're very much not sure whether you'll get it, participating in a talent show, and shopping for a car, all rolled in to one Great quote. Those feeling pretty much summarize to perfection the current fad of interviewing pressure.
camgunz 5y ago
> In my opinion, it is borderline disability discrimination. This rings pretty true to me, thank you for sharing your experience.
vmception 5y ago
> Basically for some random reason, the thought pops into your head just how disastrous it would be if you failed at this thing you're being asked to do. Like a driving test and the training with parents/adults beforehand. Even with some judgmental/skittish passengers its the same.
abootstrapper 5y ago
> Basically for some random reason, the thought pops into your head just how disastrous it would be if you failed at this thing you're being asked to do. Then your consciousness inevitably becomes obsessed with this thought and it's all you can think about. You start panicking This happens to me all the time! You’ve described it so succinctly. How do you cope?
- joquarky 5y ago
  Slow breathing exercises and grounding (e.g., look at the things around you and name what they are) work well for me. Once it gets past a certain threshold it gets harder, so being mindful that one is coming on and routing it before it gets into a positive feedback loop is very important. Leave the situation you're in, e.g. tell others that something has come up and you have to go.
- lhorie 5y ago
  Some perspective from the interviewer side: just tell us straight up that you're panicking. While I can't guarantee that an elitist smug interviewer is going to always respond appropriately, I at least would make an effort to try to help you calm down, be it by removing trivial blockers (e.g. fixing some syntax blooper for you) or trying to paraphrase whatever you're trying to say but not finding the words for, or asking leading questions in the hope of bringing you back on track. A little dirty secret among interviewers is that we're supposed to be accountable for managing the direction and quality of the interview (i.e. one that devolves into a awkward staring contest is a failure on the interviewer's part for not interjecting appropriately) Ultimately, it is in the company's best interest for an interviewer to look past things like nervousness-induced panic attacks, and I've heard on numerous occasions that good interview sessions involve the interviewer and candidate working together rather than adversarially.
tareqak 5y ago
This topic of “is leetcode necessary?” and the more general topic of software engineering hiring practices appear regularly on this forum, but this time is the first time I am seeing someone mention panic disorders/panic attacks as part of the interview process. Other people might have mentioned it before here, but I do try to peruse the threads that relate to interviewing. I am really grateful that you brought up this point as well sharing as your own experience 'ryandvm. My own experience when I fail to think of an answer to a leetcode question is extremely similar if not identical. I would add that my own experience is always a silent panic similar to how I experience going on a rollercoaster. Many people will scream out loud when they are going down a rollercoaster; I just clench the safety/restraining bar really, really tight and look onward while clenching my teeth. I am surprised that it took this long in my career to hear similar feelings expressed by someone else, but I am grateful that it did. Thanks again 'ryandvm! I really appreciate it.

comprev 5y ago

I experienced this recently in a surprise 'shared screen' coding exercise the interviewers threw in at the last minute. I couldn't even remember how to write a for loop in bash, something so familiar it would be like asking me to recite the alphabet. Utterly humiliating yet comical experience looking back.

d0gsg0w00f 5y ago
If it makes you feel any better, I can never remember BASH syntax. I have a gist where I keep all the common junk like for loops and array manipulation. Never had that problem in other languages as I can generally remember after 3 or 4 repetitions but my brain just can't grasp BASH syntax.
- mox1 5y ago
  BASH is the most unforgiving syntax on earth, I would never even try and memorize that stuff.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - wing-_-nuts 5y ago
    The correct way to write more than 5 lines of bash is to delete the file and write it in python. You will thank yourself when you have to modify it later.
- mrexroad 5y ago
  BASH and Regular expression syntax are two things that mysteriously expire from my memory after two weeks. It’s almost comical.
brimble 5y ago
At this point I'm convinced "candidate froze up" is the cause of most of the cases behind the "LOL 2/3 of our candidates can't even write a for loop" stories. I think it's really common.
- sanderjd 5y ago
  YES! If it seems shocking that so many experienced developers can't even do fizzbuzz, that's because it's BS; interviews just suck.

Dig1t 5y ago

>You start panicking and soon you have absolutely zero mental bandwidth to accomplish the task and your mind is basically singularly focused with getting out of this terrible situation This is such a relatable description. I don't think you even need a panic disorder to have this happen to you, this has happened to me a handful of times and it's absolutely the worst. It really is humiliating, totally ruins your day and you end up kicking yourself for several days after. I think this is just something that a lot of people do, like stage fright or something. The only way I know to avoid this is to do a lot of interviews with different companies that you don't really care about to get more confidence before you finally do get to the interview you care about, just so you don't choke during the one you want.

jliptzin 5y ago
No. Some people have panic and anxiety disorders and need professional help and/or medications to help them. It is this kind of tone deaf advice, “just prepare more, you’ll eventually get it!” that prevents people with a panic disorder from seeking professional help for years. It is like telling someone with diabetes to just try harder to produce insulin.
- ggff67 5y ago
  And how beneficial is telling people they have a mental disorder if they experience common issues that even healthy people experience? A mental disorder has to significantly impact your life for a long period. A symptom list that consists solely of freezing up when put on the spot in a rare high-stakes situation is not going to qualify. Any teacher can tell you this happens to everyone. Stop right in the middle of lecture, point at one student suddenly, and ask them a quick question that demands a quick answer and wait. The most common response will be "uh!uh!..." even when they know the answer. It's about the situation itself that people weren't ready for, not the specific facts they were asked about. You indeed need to practice retrieving information under the particular circumstances to build the confidence to not freeze up like that.
  - dang 5y ago

gopher_space 5y ago

Meanwhile on the job nobody is surprised or angry if you need to look up basics because they know you have five languages under your belt and are actively using three of them.

sanderjd 5y ago
Yeah exactly this. "Figure stuff out without looking anything up or running test cases to see what they produce or going on a walk to think about it" is just not a useful skillset at all. I have zero, and I mean zero, times done actual work under those conditions. Having said that, I am sympathetic to companies not knowing what to do that is better. There are real tradeoffs with all approaches. I kind of think if I were to design the hiring system from scratch I would 1. Hire essentially anyone interested at the entry level for low paying 6 months apprenticeships, and 2. Hire more senior people based on their resume alone, with aggressive use of performance improvement plans for underperformance after 6 month or so probationary periods. I'm sure this idea sucks too.

Godelization 5y ago

If you as a hiring manager have the choice to pick between two candidates, one of whom stays cool and productive under pressure, and the other who goes blank in emergencies, which would you prefer to have on your team? Stressful situations can occur in software engineering, including for example a moment where you realize production services are broken because of code you just deployed.

brimble 5y ago
Interview pressure is nothing like an emergency. I'm cool as a cucumber in an emergency. Hell, I kind of love them. Interviews are another thing entirely. [EDIT] What I'd liken an interview to isn't an emergency, but a date, a visit to the bank for a mortgage application when you're very much not sure whether you'll get it, participating in a talent show, and shopping for a car, all rolled in to one. That's closer to what it is, than an emergency. That also makes it very unlike nearly all activity anyone engages in at work, emergency or routine, social or solo, except for certain high-pressure sales or top executive jobs, maybe.
- porknubbins 5y ago
  I’m normally cool under pressure and able to solve technical problems quickly. But in a situation where what matters isn’t actually solving the problem but evaluating my performance and my brain goes into overdrive with perfectionism/meta thinking about what they are thinking about me to the point where I sometimes can’t even do basic math.
  - xkgt 5y ago
    Exactly, I have been in such high pressure situations several times with directors and CIOs breathing down my neck, but surprisingly I am quite composed in such scenarios. Severity of the problem at hand is in fact liberating as it is easier to focus. But that is not the case with interviews, when there is a strong "me" factor in the thought process.
- jjav 5y ago
  > a date, a visit to the bank for a mortgage application when you're very much not sure whether you'll get it, participating in a talent show, and shopping for a car, all rolled in to one Great quote. Those feeling pretty much summarize to perfection the current fad of interviewing pressure.

camgunz 5y ago

> In my opinion, it is borderline disability discrimination. This rings pretty true to me, thank you for sharing your experience.

vmception 5y ago

> Basically for some random reason, the thought pops into your head just how disastrous it would be if you failed at this thing you're being asked to do. Like a driving test and the training with parents/adults beforehand. Even with some judgmental/skittish passengers its the same.

abootstrapper 5y ago

> Basically for some random reason, the thought pops into your head just how disastrous it would be if you failed at this thing you're being asked to do. Then your consciousness inevitably becomes obsessed with this thought and it's all you can think about. You start panicking This happens to me all the time! You’ve described it so succinctly. How do you cope?

joquarky 5y ago
Slow breathing exercises and grounding (e.g., look at the things around you and name what they are) work well for me. Once it gets past a certain threshold it gets harder, so being mindful that one is coming on and routing it before it gets into a positive feedback loop is very important. Leave the situation you're in, e.g. tell others that something has come up and you have to go.
lhorie 5y ago
Some perspective from the interviewer side: just tell us straight up that you're panicking. While I can't guarantee that an elitist smug interviewer is going to always respond appropriately, I at least would make an effort to try to help you calm down, be it by removing trivial blockers (e.g. fixing some syntax blooper for you) or trying to paraphrase whatever you're trying to say but not finding the words for, or asking leading questions in the hope of bringing you back on track. A little dirty secret among interviewers is that we're supposed to be accountable for managing the direction and quality of the interview (i.e. one that devolves into a awkward staring contest is a failure on the interviewer's part for not interjecting appropriately) Ultimately, it is in the company's best interest for an interviewer to look past things like nervousness-induced panic attacks, and I've heard on numerous occasions that good interview sessions involve the interviewer and candidate working together rather than adversarially.

tareqak 5y ago

This topic of “is leetcode necessary?” and the more general topic of software engineering hiring practices appear regularly on this forum, but this time is the first time I am seeing someone mention panic disorders/panic attacks as part of the interview process. Other people might have mentioned it before here, but I do try to peruse the threads that relate to interviewing. I am really grateful that you brought up this point as well sharing as your own experience 'ryandvm. My own experience when I fail to think of an answer to a leetcode question is extremely similar if not identical. I would add that my own experience is always a silent panic similar to how I experience going on a rollercoaster. Many people will scream out loud when they are going down a rollercoaster; I just clench the safety/restraining bar really, really tight and look onward while clenching my teeth. I am surprised that it took this long in my career to hear similar feelings expressed by someone else, but I am grateful that it did. Thanks again 'ryandvm! I really appreciate it.