11 ms·

Quebec bans unvaccinated from buying groceries at Walmart, Costco

117 points by steelstraw 5y ago

superkuh 5y ago
The public policy responses to this pandemic would make a whole lot more sense if intramuscular (humoral) vaccination actually prevented (or even significantly mitigated) the spread of sars-cov-2. Unfortunately humoral vaccination only starts the B cell to plasma cells training and generation of igG antibodies in the body serum to protect internal organs. Other immune compartments like the upper respiratory mucosa are not protected by serum igG antibodies. And the T cells trained by intramuscular vaccination are not tissue resident in the upper respiratory where they are needed to stop infection. They just do a pretty darn good job at preventing serious disease. I wish governments of the world would heavily invest in the current and future intranasal sars-cov-2 boosters to prevent spread and follow up on the strong base of intramuscular body protection. I might not even be opposed to mandating intranasal vaccinations since they would stop spread. But this? This doesn't make a lot of scientific sense.
- hhh 5y ago
  I’ll take a shot in the arm, but my nose? Eehhhh…
  - superkuh 5y ago
    Not a shot, an intranasal spray. The leading candidates on clinicaltrials.gov are adenovirus carried spike protein based versions (I would rather have mRNA) but it should still do the job of getting upper respiratory resident T cells trained on sars-cov-2 epitopes.
    - rastignack 5y ago
      It might work, who knows. But how comes there are 4 endemic coronaviruses ? Do you think a sterilizing vaccine is even possible ? Wouldn’t immunity also wane ?
      - superkuh 5y ago
        The igA antibodies produced by trained mucosal resident B->plasma cells would stick around for an even shorter time than the igG antibodies do in the body serum. But the trained and resident T cells would be there to kill off infected cells right at the start instead of after days. So yeah, I think a sterilizing intranasal vaccine is possible but it likely won't depend on the igA antibodies generated. This follows with the studies of "super" immunity in rare special medical workers who never get sick with covid-19 and also never show antibodies for it. The nature paper seemed to show it was their upper respiratory mucosal T cells doing the job; having already been trained and cross reactive with other coronaviruses. But we can't all be lucky mutants and most of our upper respiratory systems will need some training. ref: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/373/6553/397 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/373/6553/397 (paywall bypass full pdf: http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Biology/Coronavirus/Intranasal%20vaccination%20should%20block%20SARS-CoV-2%20transmission%20at%20the%20source_%20Scent%20of%20a%20vaccine_%20Frances%20E%20Lund_%20%20Troy%20D%20Randall_%20Science%202021.pdf http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Biology/Coronavirus/Intr...)
  - ebiester 5y ago
    It happened with Polio.
    - howinteresting 5y ago
      I thought polio was oral (and IM).
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
  The Quebec government's major concern is protecting their health care system. The Canadian health care system was quite stretched pre-pandemic, and it wouldn't take much to break it. The goal at this point is less about preventing the spread than it is about increasing the vaccination rate to keep people out of hospitals.
  - Flankk 5y ago
    Why are hospitals stretched thin? Nurses have quit, have been fired due to mandates, and have been prevented from returning to work due to infection. You need a passport to eat in a restaurant here. There are 30,000 pissed off truckers headed to Ottawa right now. They lost their jobs due to mandates. Your argument is that these things are smart decisions?
    - SSilver2k2 5y ago
      The needs of the many. Get the vaccine. It's safe and allows you to be part of society again.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- VHRanger 5y ago
  Quebec has a heavily socialized medical system. 10% of the population is unvaccinated, but make up >50% of COVID beds in hopitals, a significant fraction of the *entire medical system*. At some point the other 90% of taxpayers shouldn't subsidized the stupid decisions of the remaining 10%. I'm not saying banning grocery store access is necessarily it, but something needs to be done
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    >At some point the other 90% of taxpayers shouldn't subsidized the stupid decisions of the remaining 10%. The idea that vaccinated people are an island unconcerned with the fate of the un-vaccinated or the spread of the disease breaks down in two places: 1. You can still die from it if you have the shot, you're just substantially less likely to. 2. Eventually, unless they're stopped, random mutations will create a virus that the vaccine doesn't help with at all. Honestly, the fact that the virus is running around replicating in a way that's constantly exposed to anti-vaccination selection pressure (both from trying to jump out of the un-vaccinated reservoir to vaccinated people and replicating to a limited extent in the presence of vaccine-primed immune systems) is in some ways a worst-case-scenario. It would be hard to intentionally design a vaccine escape guided evolution experiment more effective than what we've created in the world today.
    - tux1968 5y ago
      There are literally billions of unvaccinated people on the planet still, and there are unvaccinated wildlife hosts for Covid as well. It was naive to think that anything but this scenario would emerge.
      - orang2tang 5y ago
        Yet we have many people who want to attempt to vaccinate the entire world 4-5 times over in order to defeat a common cold. Crazy times.
  - rastignack 5y ago
    And overweight people make up to 65% of those. See a dark pattern here ?
- nyokodo 5y ago
  > This doesn't make a lot of scientific sense. This policy is the most flagrant targeted political attack. It has nothing to do with science. If you start restricting people’s ability to feed and clothe themselves you’ve crossed a very dark line.
- space_fountain 5y ago
  Covid vaccines did do a decent job at preventing spread in the original variants, and actually even now (unless I'm mistaken, it's hard to entirely keep up) the vaccines still cut the probability of you being infected at any point in time
  - 34679 5y ago
    This is false. I challenge anyone to find any statement, from any of the mRNA vaccine manufacturers, from any point in time, that claims the vaccines reduce transmission even a tiny bit.
    - myko 5y ago
      https://twitter.com/JohnsHopkinsSPH/status/1481687506148118529 https://twitter.com/JohnsHopkinsSPH/status/14816875061481185... https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccinated-people-can-transmit-the-coronavirus-but-its-still-more-likely-if-youre-unvaccinated https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccinated-people-can... It is well known that vaccination helps to reduce spread. It isn't perfect, but it is better than being unvaccinated. The data is clear but you can also reason about this and feel like it is intuitively true - those that are vaccinated face better outcomes and are sick for shorter periods of time, the shorter period of time they are infected leads to them being unable to infect others for as long. It's pretty simple, really. edit: multiple studies by scientists in different countries is more reliable than marketing text from any specific manufacturer. The data is available, just read the studies mentioned in the article I linked, or research on your own.
      - 34679 5y ago
        If the vaccines reduce spread, the manufacturers would say so. I asked for such a claim from any one of them. Edit: >multiple studies by scientists in different countries is more reliable than marketing text from any specific manufacturer. I agree. The problem is, no such marketing text exists.
      - Baloo 5y ago
        Shouldn't people be isolating regardless of vaccination status, so the argument that they're sick for shorter amount of time is redundant? Why do we care about the virus spreading, it's always going to spread.. the concern should be giving the vaccine to the vulnerable that need it; the main benefit is reducing severity for them. For everyone else, its main benefit is securing revenue for the leading drug manufacturers. If I'm unvaccinated and testing negative, then what is the problem?
- sleepingadmin 5y ago
Mikeb85 5y ago
The UK, Denmark and others moving to get rid of ALL restrictions. Meanwhile Canada, Australia and others devolving into police states... Edit - forgot some other countries. Netherlands, Ireland also ditching restrictions...
- SSilver2k2 5y ago
  Not a police state to put in more restrictions after the bare minimum hasn't worked or been followed.
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    Grocery stores are barely a vector of transmission. There's no real data to back this decision up.
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    Whether you agree with the policies or not doesn't change the fact that it's a police state.
  - kerneloftruth 5y ago
    What does "worked" mean? Illness and risk lower, or simply people following orders? People have lost sight of the former after unrelenting emphasis on the latter. It's time to turn critical thinking skills back on.
    - errcorrectcode 5y ago
      Vaccinations prevent deaths and reduce stress on the healthcare system. They work, but they only work when people get them. Read: When Did Mandatory Vaccinations Become Common? (article from 2015) https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/158827 https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/158827 There were 1282 cases of measles in 2019. Around 90% were caused by anti-vaxx hermit communities who freeload off the protections of the police, military, healthcare system, and other services, but live here and put others at risk because magical beliefs makes them "special". If you reject vaccinations, then I suggest you should sign a waiver that you also reject healthcare. Can't have it both ways. "Ounce of prevention."
tims33 5y ago
Creating a competitive advantage for non-big box stores? This is an incredibly odd policy.
- mabub24 5y ago
  Most of the provinces have been engaged in pandemic response theater. The core issue is hospital capacity, and the provinces across the board have failed to improve or address the issues in their healthcare systems. Quebec has adopted a particularly theatrical set of of responses (curfews, this latest insistence on vaccine "passports" for stores), but I don't think anyone really expects these to be anything more than theater and moves for public appeasement.
  - tims33 5y ago
    I agree. Hospital capacity is critical. One of the biggest mistakes of the pandemic is leaders not being clear on exactly what problem they're trying to solve and laying out how a manageable list of mitigations address the specific problems.
  - snovv_crash 5y ago
    Assuming that you're a software engineer in some kind of capacity because it's HN. If we put it into Big-O terms, reducing transmission via whatever means affects the exponent of the spread, whereas adding hospital capacity is a linear response. At a certain quantity adding hospital capacity makes sense, but at some point you can't beat the dynamics of the situation and the required hospital capacity can quickly grow hundreds of times beyond what exists, if, that is, you don't contain the spread.
- ur-whale 5y ago
  > Creating a competitive advantage for non-big box stores? Sometimes the law of unintended consequences works in a positive manner :)
  - errcorrectcode 5y ago
    I'd probably cry if I couldn't shop at Costco. The price differential between corporate chain grocery stores and big box stores reminds me of that between convenience stores and said grocery stores. I'm wondering if a big box store went completely delivery-only (close all stores) with a minimum order of say $300, would profits go up or down. I'm wondering if it would be possible to guesstimate P&L close enough in each scenario to find the overall more likely capital-efficient business model.
newaccount2021 5y ago
mzs 5y ago
> … As directed by the Government of Quebec, we will implement the vaccine passport at our stores in Quebec. We ask for our customer’s patience and understanding as we continue to ensure a safe and efficient customer experience. 6:35 PM · Jan 24, 2022·@WalmartCanada … > Yesterday we implemented the vaccine passports at our stores in Quebec. Some pictures on social media wrongly suggest that plexiglass dividers at some stores are to isolate non vaccinated customers. This is false. The dividers are for associates when they scan vaccine passports. 7:44 AM · Jan 25, 2022·@WalmartCanada https://twitter.com/WalmartCanada/status/1485971856138158089 https://twitter.com/WalmartCanada/status/1485971856138158089
myko 5y ago
This is unquestionably good, as long as pickups and dropoffs are available.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  What makes it unquestionable? There's no data or science to back this up, it's the definition of questionable.
  - myko 5y ago
    There is a lot of data showing unvaccinated are at higher risk of severe illness and spread disease more than vaccinated folks. You are wrong. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccinated-people-can-transmit-the-coronavirus-but-its-still-more-likely-if-youre-unvaccinated https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccinated-people-can... https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20211124/unvaccinated-14-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/2021112... The data is clear. They're not banned from buying groceries, they're banned from entering the stores - which unquestionably would lead to them spreading the virus more than vaccinated people entering stores. They're still allowed to do pickup and delivery orders. Or better yet, get vaccinated. edit: in the information I linked it is made clear that vaccinated folks _can_ spread the virus. That is true and I never said otherwise. The fact is they spread the virus at much lower rates, for shorter periods of time, than unvaccinated folks. For this reason people should wear N95s when interacting with folks outside of their bubble. In my experience vaccinated folks are more likely to wear their masks, and properly, as well, but I've got no data on that.
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      I'm talking about banning unvaccinated people from buying groceries, specifically. Which is what this is about.
      - moistly 5y ago
        Nobody is banned from buying groceries. Good god.
friendlydog 5y ago
unconvinced 5y ago
daenz 5y ago
>A statement on Costco’s website states that as per their Code of Ethics, they are required to comply with the law wherever they operate. Either support it or don't, but this lukewarm response of "I'm just obeying orders" is cowardly.
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  Companies just need to follow laws, they don't need an opinion on everything.
  - daenz 5y ago
    Will you maintain that position when you find that a company upholds a horrifying law?
    - xboxnolifes 5y ago
      If they follow and law because it's the law, yes. My anger would be toward the government or my peers. I live in a democratic society last time I checked, even if it doesn't always move how I would like.
    - gpm 5y ago
      There's a difference between the statement "don't need an opinion on everything" and "don't need an opinion on anything". Your criticism would only apply to the latter statement.
  - loceng 5y ago
    Hopefully then the companies are just as willing to pay fines for following illegal rules put in place without following the parliamentary process.
    - xboxnolifes 5y ago
      What does an illegal rule (law) even mean? I'm an American so maybe I'm missing something from another country, but the two are one and the same as far as I know. If I needed to start making judgement calls on every law on whether it's illegal or not, that would be a wild way to live.
disambiguation 5y ago
https://www.quebec.ca/en/health/health-issues/a-z/2019-coronavirus/situation-coronavirus-in-quebec/ https://www.quebec.ca/en/health/health-issues/a-z/2019-coron... The most recent data on the evolution of COVID-19, in the last 24 hours, in Québec show: 4,150 new cases, bringing the total number of people infected to 845,564*; 73 new deaths, for a total of 13,009 deaths; 3,270 hospitalizations, for a decrease of 8 compared to the previous day; 297 new entries, 305 new discharges; 252 people in intensive care, for a decrease of 11 compared to the previous day; 31 new entries, 42 new discharges; 38,734 samples conducted on January 24. I wonder how this action will improve on these numbers.
- loceng 5y ago
  - Tiktaalik 5y ago
    suicides are way down. just stop. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-suicides-in-canada-fell-32-per-cent-in-first-year-of-pandemic-compared/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-suicides-in-c...
    - loceng 5y ago
      Stop asking questions, stop having concerns and compassion for my fellow humans, stop conversation as part of scientific process? Who's more likely the person who should stop their behaviour - you or me? Alright, so that's one article - and across Canada - now what about specific demographics? What about the 2nd year of the pandemic? Specific demographics matter because, for example, risk of myocarditis for young boys is something between 1:2000 and 1:3800 but spread across the population it's supposedly something closer to 1:100,000 - so hopefully you get why that's an important factor, right? You understand that insights can easily be hidden (whether maliciously/purposefully or not) by generalized macro numbers? Likewise, what demographics was there a decrease in — and what demographics may there have been an increase in? I hope you understand math enough to understand that a 300% increase in one demographic may be completely washed out by a 80% decrease from another larger demographic? But you’re satisfied with a “32% reduction in suicides” as the final answer - why is that? Did you just not think it through enough, or what gives? Do you think anyone critically thinking through this, following scientific methods and statistics, is perhaps a [pejorative] “anti-vaxxer” - and so you automatically and lazily categorize them as such — and they’re soooo irritating because they counter the simplified mainstream narrative being perpetuated that you reach the impetus of saying “just stop” to someone looking for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth [so help you God; if you’re into that God concept]? Why I ask is that it’s crucial we figure out why people are so easily indoctrinated into ideology, as part of finding the solution to this intellectual-ideological crisis we’re currently in - which certainly ties into the general health crisis that we’re in [including obesity as a signal]. Or wait - I should listen to you and stop asking these pesky nuanced questions because? [I would have replied almost immediately to you but HN's rate limiting number of comments]
0x_rs 5y ago
This is a state fighting its own citizens for a political act of ignorance. 90% of eligible individuals have received at least one dose in Quebec.[0] What's the point of additional marginalization of a very stubborn group of people? It's playing with fire and with no responsibilities, as I severely doubt anyone will be convinced to get vaccinated because they can't go to Walmart after one year of restrictions, but it will certainly make them madder. [0]. https://covid19tracker.ca/provincevac.html?p=QC https://covid19tracker.ca/provincevac.html?p=QC
- belval 5y ago
  Not sure if you're from Quebec so this wouldn't be news to you, but our healthcare is BAD. Like comically bad. Nurses are routinely forced to do doubles because they don't have enough staff, hell we don't even have enough beds either! Because of COVID a lot of non-critical but still pretty important procedures were cancelled for lack of workers. So in that context the government is legitimately scared of it all crashing down so we get these policies. For the more data driven among us here is a chart showing what I mean: https://i.redd.it/l76rbcvkl0e81.jpg https://i.redd.it/l76rbcvkl0e81.jpg (In french but you will probably still understand)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - subsubzero 5y ago
    That sounds like a problem with health infrastructure. So because leaders did not put in the needed health infrastructure to serve the population, basic rights(buying food) are violated for some.
    - belval 5y ago
      Yes, that's what I wrote. Health infrastructure does not exist in a vacuum and between non-vaccinated having to shop at a regular grocery store and people literally dying because we don't have beds in hospital I'll take the lesser evil. FWIW I agree that after 2 years of the pandemic I see it as a failure of leadership. > Basic rights(buying food) are violated for some Let's not resort to hyperbole here. They can shop at Loblaws/Provigo/IGA/Metro/Maxi/Traditions like most people. They don't have a right to shop at Walmart.
sumosudo 5y ago
How are these stores gonna fill their shelves with the trucker response?!
motohagiography 5y ago
Quebec is a test ground because they've got a language barrier, so it's not like any resistance will register or trend online or make mainstream media. This has nothing to do with safety either. Knowing some people who work in Walmart corporate, I interpret it as pure cynical and radical politics. The Waltons have shown they are very much on board with the WEF/ESG agenda, and they are as out of touch with us as Bentonville is to the rest of Arkansas. It's an abomination, but if I were to make a prediction, judging by the size of the truck convoy crossing the country, this will be the least interesting news about this topic over the next couple of weeks.
t0bia_s 5y ago
SSilver2k2 5y ago
Some great images here of how people are fed up with the anti-vaxxers and truckers who are a vocal minority about the vaccines. https://imgur.com/gallery/8el1Jj5 https://imgur.com/gallery/8el1Jj5

117 points by steelstraw 5y ago

The public policy responses to this pandemic would make a whole lot more sense if intramuscular (humoral) vaccination actually prevented (or even significantly mitigated) the spread of sars-cov-2. Unfortunately humoral vaccination only starts the B cell to plasma cells training and generation of igG antibodies in the body serum to protect internal organs. Other immune compartments like the upper respiratory mucosa are not protected by serum igG antibodies. And the T cells trained by intramuscular vaccination are not tissue resident in the upper respiratory where they are needed to stop infection. They just do a pretty darn good job at preventing serious disease. I wish governments of the world would heavily invest in the current and future intranasal sars-cov-2 boosters to prevent spread and follow up on the strong base of intramuscular body protection. I might not even be opposed to mandating intranasal vaccinations since they would stop spread. But this? This doesn't make a lot of scientific sense.

hhh 5y ago
I’ll take a shot in the arm, but my nose? Eehhhh…
- superkuh 5y ago
  Not a shot, an intranasal spray. The leading candidates on clinicaltrials.gov are adenovirus carried spike protein based versions (I would rather have mRNA) but it should still do the job of getting upper respiratory resident T cells trained on sars-cov-2 epitopes.
  - rastignack 5y ago
    It might work, who knows. But how comes there are 4 endemic coronaviruses ? Do you think a sterilizing vaccine is even possible ? Wouldn’t immunity also wane ?
    - superkuh 5y ago
      The igA antibodies produced by trained mucosal resident B->plasma cells would stick around for an even shorter time than the igG antibodies do in the body serum. But the trained and resident T cells would be there to kill off infected cells right at the start instead of after days. So yeah, I think a sterilizing intranasal vaccine is possible but it likely won't depend on the igA antibodies generated. This follows with the studies of "super" immunity in rare special medical workers who never get sick with covid-19 and also never show antibodies for it. The nature paper seemed to show it was their upper respiratory mucosal T cells doing the job; having already been trained and cross reactive with other coronaviruses. But we can't all be lucky mutants and most of our upper respiratory systems will need some training. ref: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/373/6553/397 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/373/6553/397 (paywall bypass full pdf: http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Biology/Coronavirus/Intranasal%20vaccination%20should%20block%20SARS-CoV-2%20transmission%20at%20the%20source_%20Scent%20of%20a%20vaccine_%20Frances%20E%20Lund_%20%20Troy%20D%20Randall_%20Science%202021.pdf http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Biology/Coronavirus/Intr...)
- ebiester 5y ago
  It happened with Polio.
  - howinteresting 5y ago
    I thought polio was oral (and IM).
bryanlarsen 5y ago
The Quebec government's major concern is protecting their health care system. The Canadian health care system was quite stretched pre-pandemic, and it wouldn't take much to break it. The goal at this point is less about preventing the spread than it is about increasing the vaccination rate to keep people out of hospitals.
- Flankk 5y ago
  Why are hospitals stretched thin? Nurses have quit, have been fired due to mandates, and have been prevented from returning to work due to infection. You need a passport to eat in a restaurant here. There are 30,000 pissed off truckers headed to Ottawa right now. They lost their jobs due to mandates. Your argument is that these things are smart decisions?
  - SSilver2k2 5y ago
    The needs of the many. Get the vaccine. It's safe and allows you to be part of society again.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
VHRanger 5y ago
Quebec has a heavily socialized medical system. 10% of the population is unvaccinated, but make up >50% of COVID beds in hopitals, a significant fraction of the *entire medical system*. At some point the other 90% of taxpayers shouldn't subsidized the stupid decisions of the remaining 10%. I'm not saying banning grocery store access is necessarily it, but something needs to be done
- whatshisface 5y ago
  >At some point the other 90% of taxpayers shouldn't subsidized the stupid decisions of the remaining 10%. The idea that vaccinated people are an island unconcerned with the fate of the un-vaccinated or the spread of the disease breaks down in two places: 1. You can still die from it if you have the shot, you're just substantially less likely to. 2. Eventually, unless they're stopped, random mutations will create a virus that the vaccine doesn't help with at all. Honestly, the fact that the virus is running around replicating in a way that's constantly exposed to anti-vaccination selection pressure (both from trying to jump out of the un-vaccinated reservoir to vaccinated people and replicating to a limited extent in the presence of vaccine-primed immune systems) is in some ways a worst-case-scenario. It would be hard to intentionally design a vaccine escape guided evolution experiment more effective than what we've created in the world today.
  - tux1968 5y ago
    There are literally billions of unvaccinated people on the planet still, and there are unvaccinated wildlife hosts for Covid as well. It was naive to think that anything but this scenario would emerge.
    - orang2tang 5y ago
      Yet we have many people who want to attempt to vaccinate the entire world 4-5 times over in order to defeat a common cold. Crazy times.
- rastignack 5y ago
  And overweight people make up to 65% of those. See a dark pattern here ?
nyokodo 5y ago
> This doesn't make a lot of scientific sense. This policy is the most flagrant targeted political attack. It has nothing to do with science. If you start restricting people’s ability to feed and clothe themselves you’ve crossed a very dark line.
space_fountain 5y ago
Covid vaccines did do a decent job at preventing spread in the original variants, and actually even now (unless I'm mistaken, it's hard to entirely keep up) the vaccines still cut the probability of you being infected at any point in time
- 34679 5y ago
  This is false. I challenge anyone to find any statement, from any of the mRNA vaccine manufacturers, from any point in time, that claims the vaccines reduce transmission even a tiny bit.
  - myko 5y ago
    https://twitter.com/JohnsHopkinsSPH/status/1481687506148118529 https://twitter.com/JohnsHopkinsSPH/status/14816875061481185... https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccinated-people-can-transmit-the-coronavirus-but-its-still-more-likely-if-youre-unvaccinated https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccinated-people-can... It is well known that vaccination helps to reduce spread. It isn't perfect, but it is better than being unvaccinated. The data is clear but you can also reason about this and feel like it is intuitively true - those that are vaccinated face better outcomes and are sick for shorter periods of time, the shorter period of time they are infected leads to them being unable to infect others for as long. It's pretty simple, really. edit: multiple studies by scientists in different countries is more reliable than marketing text from any specific manufacturer. The data is available, just read the studies mentioned in the article I linked, or research on your own.
    - 34679 5y ago
      If the vaccines reduce spread, the manufacturers would say so. I asked for such a claim from any one of them. Edit: >multiple studies by scientists in different countries is more reliable than marketing text from any specific manufacturer. I agree. The problem is, no such marketing text exists.
    - Baloo 5y ago
      Shouldn't people be isolating regardless of vaccination status, so the argument that they're sick for shorter amount of time is redundant? Why do we care about the virus spreading, it's always going to spread.. the concern should be giving the vaccine to the vulnerable that need it; the main benefit is reducing severity for them. For everyone else, its main benefit is securing revenue for the leading drug manufacturers. If I'm unvaccinated and testing negative, then what is the problem?
sleepingadmin 5y ago

Mikeb85 5y ago

The UK, Denmark and others moving to get rid of ALL restrictions. Meanwhile Canada, Australia and others devolving into police states... Edit - forgot some other countries. Netherlands, Ireland also ditching restrictions...

SSilver2k2 5y ago
Not a police state to put in more restrictions after the bare minimum hasn't worked or been followed.
- aaomidi 5y ago
  Grocery stores are barely a vector of transmission. There's no real data to back this decision up.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  Whether you agree with the policies or not doesn't change the fact that it's a police state.
- kerneloftruth 5y ago
  What does "worked" mean? Illness and risk lower, or simply people following orders? People have lost sight of the former after unrelenting emphasis on the latter. It's time to turn critical thinking skills back on.
  - errcorrectcode 5y ago
    Vaccinations prevent deaths and reduce stress on the healthcare system. They work, but they only work when people get them. Read: When Did Mandatory Vaccinations Become Common? (article from 2015) https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/158827 https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/158827 There were 1282 cases of measles in 2019. Around 90% were caused by anti-vaxx hermit communities who freeload off the protections of the police, military, healthcare system, and other services, but live here and put others at risk because magical beliefs makes them "special". If you reject vaccinations, then I suggest you should sign a waiver that you also reject healthcare. Can't have it both ways. "Ounce of prevention."

tims33 5y ago

Creating a competitive advantage for non-big box stores? This is an incredibly odd policy.

mabub24 5y ago
Most of the provinces have been engaged in pandemic response theater. The core issue is hospital capacity, and the provinces across the board have failed to improve or address the issues in their healthcare systems. Quebec has adopted a particularly theatrical set of of responses (curfews, this latest insistence on vaccine "passports" for stores), but I don't think anyone really expects these to be anything more than theater and moves for public appeasement.
- tims33 5y ago
  I agree. Hospital capacity is critical. One of the biggest mistakes of the pandemic is leaders not being clear on exactly what problem they're trying to solve and laying out how a manageable list of mitigations address the specific problems.
- snovv_crash 5y ago
  Assuming that you're a software engineer in some kind of capacity because it's HN. If we put it into Big-O terms, reducing transmission via whatever means affects the exponent of the spread, whereas adding hospital capacity is a linear response. At a certain quantity adding hospital capacity makes sense, but at some point you can't beat the dynamics of the situation and the required hospital capacity can quickly grow hundreds of times beyond what exists, if, that is, you don't contain the spread.
ur-whale 5y ago
> Creating a competitive advantage for non-big box stores? Sometimes the law of unintended consequences works in a positive manner :)
- errcorrectcode 5y ago
  I'd probably cry if I couldn't shop at Costco. The price differential between corporate chain grocery stores and big box stores reminds me of that between convenience stores and said grocery stores. I'm wondering if a big box store went completely delivery-only (close all stores) with a minimum order of say $300, would profits go up or down. I'm wondering if it would be possible to guesstimate P&L close enough in each scenario to find the overall more likely capital-efficient business model.

newaccount2021 5y ago

mzs 5y ago

> … As directed by the Government of Quebec, we will implement the vaccine passport at our stores in Quebec. We ask for our customer’s patience and understanding as we continue to ensure a safe and efficient customer experience. 6:35 PM · Jan 24, 2022·@WalmartCanada … > Yesterday we implemented the vaccine passports at our stores in Quebec. Some pictures on social media wrongly suggest that plexiglass dividers at some stores are to isolate non vaccinated customers. This is false. The dividers are for associates when they scan vaccine passports. 7:44 AM · Jan 25, 2022·@WalmartCanada https://twitter.com/WalmartCanada/status/1485971856138158089 https://twitter.com/WalmartCanada/status/1485971856138158089

myko 5y ago

This is unquestionably good, as long as pickups and dropoffs are available.

jaywalk 5y ago
What makes it unquestionable? There's no data or science to back this up, it's the definition of questionable.
- myko 5y ago
  There is a lot of data showing unvaccinated are at higher risk of severe illness and spread disease more than vaccinated folks. You are wrong. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccinated-people-can-transmit-the-coronavirus-but-its-still-more-likely-if-youre-unvaccinated https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccinated-people-can... https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20211124/unvaccinated-14-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/2021112... The data is clear. They're not banned from buying groceries, they're banned from entering the stores - which unquestionably would lead to them spreading the virus more than vaccinated people entering stores. They're still allowed to do pickup and delivery orders. Or better yet, get vaccinated. edit: in the information I linked it is made clear that vaccinated folks _can_ spread the virus. That is true and I never said otherwise. The fact is they spread the virus at much lower rates, for shorter periods of time, than unvaccinated folks. For this reason people should wear N95s when interacting with folks outside of their bubble. In my experience vaccinated folks are more likely to wear their masks, and properly, as well, but I've got no data on that.
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    I'm talking about banning unvaccinated people from buying groceries, specifically. Which is what this is about.
    - moistly 5y ago
      Nobody is banned from buying groceries. Good god.

friendlydog 5y ago

unconvinced 5y ago

daenz 5y ago

>A statement on Costco’s website states that as per their Code of Ethics, they are required to comply with the law wherever they operate. Either support it or don't, but this lukewarm response of "I'm just obeying orders" is cowardly.

xboxnolifes 5y ago
Companies just need to follow laws, they don't need an opinion on everything.
- daenz 5y ago
  Will you maintain that position when you find that a company upholds a horrifying law?
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    If they follow and law because it's the law, yes. My anger would be toward the government or my peers. I live in a democratic society last time I checked, even if it doesn't always move how I would like.
  - gpm 5y ago
    There's a difference between the statement "don't need an opinion on everything" and "don't need an opinion on anything". Your criticism would only apply to the latter statement.
- loceng 5y ago
  Hopefully then the companies are just as willing to pay fines for following illegal rules put in place without following the parliamentary process.
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    What does an illegal rule (law) even mean? I'm an American so maybe I'm missing something from another country, but the two are one and the same as far as I know. If I needed to start making judgement calls on every law on whether it's illegal or not, that would be a wild way to live.

disambiguation 5y ago

https://www.quebec.ca/en/health/health-issues/a-z/2019-coronavirus/situation-coronavirus-in-quebec/ https://www.quebec.ca/en/health/health-issues/a-z/2019-coron... The most recent data on the evolution of COVID-19, in the last 24 hours, in Québec show: 4,150 new cases, bringing the total number of people infected to 845,564*; 73 new deaths, for a total of 13,009 deaths; 3,270 hospitalizations, for a decrease of 8 compared to the previous day; 297 new entries, 305 new discharges; 252 people in intensive care, for a decrease of 11 compared to the previous day; 31 new entries, 42 new discharges; 38,734 samples conducted on January 24. I wonder how this action will improve on these numbers.

loceng 5y ago
- Tiktaalik 5y ago
  suicides are way down. just stop. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-suicides-in-canada-fell-32-per-cent-in-first-year-of-pandemic-compared/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-suicides-in-c...
  - loceng 5y ago
    Stop asking questions, stop having concerns and compassion for my fellow humans, stop conversation as part of scientific process? Who's more likely the person who should stop their behaviour - you or me? Alright, so that's one article - and across Canada - now what about specific demographics? What about the 2nd year of the pandemic? Specific demographics matter because, for example, risk of myocarditis for young boys is something between 1:2000 and 1:3800 but spread across the population it's supposedly something closer to 1:100,000 - so hopefully you get why that's an important factor, right? You understand that insights can easily be hidden (whether maliciously/purposefully or not) by generalized macro numbers? Likewise, what demographics was there a decrease in — and what demographics may there have been an increase in? I hope you understand math enough to understand that a 300% increase in one demographic may be completely washed out by a 80% decrease from another larger demographic? But you’re satisfied with a “32% reduction in suicides” as the final answer - why is that? Did you just not think it through enough, or what gives? Do you think anyone critically thinking through this, following scientific methods and statistics, is perhaps a [pejorative] “anti-vaxxer” - and so you automatically and lazily categorize them as such — and they’re soooo irritating because they counter the simplified mainstream narrative being perpetuated that you reach the impetus of saying “just stop” to someone looking for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth [so help you God; if you’re into that God concept]? Why I ask is that it’s crucial we figure out why people are so easily indoctrinated into ideology, as part of finding the solution to this intellectual-ideological crisis we’re currently in - which certainly ties into the general health crisis that we’re in [including obesity as a signal]. Or wait - I should listen to you and stop asking these pesky nuanced questions because? [I would have replied almost immediately to you but HN's rate limiting number of comments]

0x_rs 5y ago

This is a state fighting its own citizens for a political act of ignorance. 90% of eligible individuals have received at least one dose in Quebec.[0] What's the point of additional marginalization of a very stubborn group of people? It's playing with fire and with no responsibilities, as I severely doubt anyone will be convinced to get vaccinated because they can't go to Walmart after one year of restrictions, but it will certainly make them madder. [0]. https://covid19tracker.ca/provincevac.html?p=QC https://covid19tracker.ca/provincevac.html?p=QC

belval 5y ago
Not sure if you're from Quebec so this wouldn't be news to you, but our healthcare is BAD. Like comically bad. Nurses are routinely forced to do doubles because they don't have enough staff, hell we don't even have enough beds either! Because of COVID a lot of non-critical but still pretty important procedures were cancelled for lack of workers. So in that context the government is legitimately scared of it all crashing down so we get these policies. For the more data driven among us here is a chart showing what I mean: https://i.redd.it/l76rbcvkl0e81.jpg https://i.redd.it/l76rbcvkl0e81.jpg (In french but you will probably still understand)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- subsubzero 5y ago
  That sounds like a problem with health infrastructure. So because leaders did not put in the needed health infrastructure to serve the population, basic rights(buying food) are violated for some.
  - belval 5y ago
    Yes, that's what I wrote. Health infrastructure does not exist in a vacuum and between non-vaccinated having to shop at a regular grocery store and people literally dying because we don't have beds in hospital I'll take the lesser evil. FWIW I agree that after 2 years of the pandemic I see it as a failure of leadership. > Basic rights(buying food) are violated for some Let's not resort to hyperbole here. They can shop at Loblaws/Provigo/IGA/Metro/Maxi/Traditions like most people. They don't have a right to shop at Walmart.

sumosudo 5y ago

How are these stores gonna fill their shelves with the trucker response?!

motohagiography 5y ago

Quebec is a test ground because they've got a language barrier, so it's not like any resistance will register or trend online or make mainstream media. This has nothing to do with safety either. Knowing some people who work in Walmart corporate, I interpret it as pure cynical and radical politics. The Waltons have shown they are very much on board with the WEF/ESG agenda, and they are as out of touch with us as Bentonville is to the rest of Arkansas. It's an abomination, but if I were to make a prediction, judging by the size of the truck convoy crossing the country, this will be the least interesting news about this topic over the next couple of weeks.

t0bia_s 5y ago

SSilver2k2 5y ago

Some great images here of how people are fed up with the anti-vaxxers and truckers who are a vocal minority about the vaccines. https://imgur.com/gallery/8el1Jj5 https://imgur.com/gallery/8el1Jj5