11 ms·

This is a direct result of the (intentionally) punitive nature of vaccine mandates. Broad, heavy-handed actions by the government are the classic spark for soc

by nvelty 5y ago

This is a direct result of the (intentionally) punitive nature of vaccine mandates. Broad, heavy-handed actions by the government are the classic spark for societal backlash. A softer approach that focused on positive benefits for having a vax pass versus punishing unvaxxed would probably had better results. Instead, we've pushed (presumably) otherwise law-abiding citizens into using forged documents. This directly undermines the legitimacy of the government - people lose respect for an authority that cannnot enforce its own orders, and these people will be more likely to carry out similar acts of defiance in the future. Considering the political polarization in America, this is not a recipe for success.

kube-system 5y ago
Some states tried using positive feedback in the form of lotteries, prizes, or even just paying people to get the vaccine. I don't think those measures were very successful.
- akvadrako 5y ago
  I haven't heard of paying people to get vaccinated so I search for it and one of it worked a little bit even when it was a measly $24, which doesn't it really cover the time it takes. https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/does-paying-people-get-vaccinated-work https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/does-paying-people-get-v... Where did they do it that it failed?
  - kube-system 5y ago
    Several US states struggling with vaccination rates paid people $100 to get vaccinated, for example: Louisiana and West Virginia https://ldh.la.gov/news/SF100-Extended https://ldh.la.gov/news/SF100-Extended https://www.wboy.com/news/health/coronavirus/watch-live-wv-gov-justice-schedules-thursday-covid-19-briefing-for-1-p-m/ https://www.wboy.com/news/health/coronavirus/watch-live-wv-g... Yet, their vaccination rates still largely follow their political predispositions. I initially thought these plans were a great idea, but I'm not sure that they've been as effective as I hoped.
- SnowProblem 5y ago
  Don't forget the worst gimmick - Krispy Kreme donuts - when we know the vast majority of deaths are in the overweight. These are tricks for monkeys. And a reminder how little they think of you. You know what would have worked? Maybe a little honesty. Maybe treating people as adults and not constantly lying to them, from masks, to virus origin, natural immunity, vaccine risks, and especially treatments. People aren't stupid. I know many who were open to the vaccine once who are digging in to protest now.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    The problem is that people think they've been lied to when they largely haven't. They've missed all of the nuance because they're looking for absolutes. Science is nuanced and politics is crude. None of those topics you list are dichotomic in nature, yet our political discussions nevertheless dilute them as such.
    - danillonunes 5y ago
      I remember in 2020 at the very beginning when people started to panic buy toilet papers, I read something about WHO saying masks should not be recommended to general public to avoid shortage for health professionals. They meant well, but what I saw at the time was a lot of media outlets turning this message into how masks are bad, innefective, and using one in public is the equivalent of wearing a tinfoil hat. This lasted less than a month, but I wonder how much this helped with the "the media is lying to us" sentiment.
      - kube-system 5y ago
        The same exact thing later happened with vaccines. They were tested to be effective at significantly reducing the severity of illness and death. Public discourse diluted this to "vaccines prevent covid", and then when people got breakthrough cases, some started claiming they "don't work because you can get it anyway".
happytoexplain 5y ago
My observation is that the political polarization of the topic came before any government action, and is the more primary cause of the issue. Government action (both heavy-handed and otherwise) sparks backlash because of the political polarization.
- buscoquadnary 5y ago
  Honestly I saw it the other way around, when it was first came out the future was uncertain, and there was a lot of confusion the only data we had was untrusted reports from China, I saw a lot of people band together, people looking out for on another general expressions of concern. There were politics involved but it was relatively mild, and ignored by many people it was about two or three months in when much of the news around COVID changed to being news about how Trump was doing what about the virus, and congress what congress was saying about responses to the virus and the usual schlop I noticed things started to get polarized at the same time the estimates were being adjusted from 1-9% fatality rates to 0.3% fatality rates.
  - slg 5y ago
    I feel like I am taking crazy pills the way that many on HN constantly seem to imply that the polarization and politicization of the pandemic was caused by the media, scientists, public health officials or anyone else but the last president and many people in his administration. They were immediately trying to shift blame to anyone but themselves. It was the "China virus" from pretty much day 1. He was literally crossing out "Corona" in his speeches and writing in "Chinese"[1] in mid-March. Or do you remember Trumps "I'd love to have it open by Easter" less than a month after the first lockdowns started? It didn't take "two or three months" for it to be politicized as a reactionary measure against Trump. Trump's first reaction was to politicize the situation. [1] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/20/three-phases-trumps-insistence-pointing-out-that-coronavirus-originated-china/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/20/three-pha...
    - falcolas 5y ago
      Imagine, for a moment, the change in reactions had Trump & company declared a "War on Covid". We love wars. A vast majority of Americans have historically gotten behind wars. Wars on drugs. Wars on terror. I dunno how things would have turned out, but it makes me wonder.
daenz 5y ago
People Don't realize that Quebec is banning unvaccinated people from many stores including big box stores (Walmart etc) [0]. The punitive nature is a side effect of creating this new authoritarianism. If you could have new authoritarianism more effectively without punitive measures, I'm sure that's what we would see. 0. https://youtu.be/PtTqEV5aWWY https://youtu.be/PtTqEV5aWWY
awd 5y ago
I think you hit the nail on it's head. Think about it: some countries where these mandates are/were introduced would describe themselves as liberal democracies. We have all these laws that limit the power of government. Forcibly injecting people with the vaccine is obviously not compatible with anything calling itself "liberal". The ideological weakness is self evident. We can't go door to door with police to give everyone the jab, so we wishy-washy try to force people with other measures. Who can respect an authority that lies and betrays one of its core principles? How can one respect a government that truly tried to outlaw natural human behavior? Talk about heavy handed.
JohnTHaller 5y ago
We had a big issue way before the vaccine mandates thanks to the absurdity of right-wing media and right-wing politicians' conspiracy theories. And subsequent pushing of ineffective treatments. There are still people here in the US who believe that ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, z-packs, and steroids will save them if they get it. And they're unvaccinated. My friend's sibling just died two months ago. Otherwise healthy and everything. Not old. But in a red county with lots of Fox News watchers, so they'd avoided the vaccine. Sad thing is, the rest of the family finally talked them into getting it and they were scheduled but got Covid the week before. Dead a month later.
- kcplate 5y ago
  > We had a big issue way before the vaccine mandates thanks to the absurdity of right-wing media and right-wing politicians' conspiracy theories Honestly, I feel like the pandemic politics predated all the right wing conspiracy theories emergence. The democrats/progressive left/resisters decision to make Covid the central issue to oust Trump is the more likely genesis. Very early on (Jan/Feb 2020) everything the Trump administration was doing was met with immediate 180 degree resistance from the progressive left and the left-leaning media. Including things they later supported—Travel bans, social distancing suggestions and yes, even the vaccine too. Before I get accused of being a conservative or a Trumpie…I’m not and far far from it. But…I am not willing to excuse problematic approaches that have negative downstream unintended consequences even if the initial intention may have been positive. Blaming the right is akin to being mad when the person you punched in the nose decides to fight back. How dare they!
  - JohnTHaller 5y ago
    > Before I get accused of being a conservative or a Trumpie…I’m not and far far from it. Your comment history betrays you.
    - kcplate 5y ago
      No it doesn’t. I am a classic liberal and an independent and my comment history reflects that. Just because I don’t hold the established dogmatic progressive opinions on every topic doesn’t mean I am conservative or supported Trump. Don’t make politics a religion.

by nvelty 5y ago

kube-system 5y ago

Some states tried using positive feedback in the form of lotteries, prizes, or even just paying people to get the vaccine. I don't think those measures were very successful.

akvadrako 5y ago
I haven't heard of paying people to get vaccinated so I search for it and one of it worked a little bit even when it was a measly $24, which doesn't it really cover the time it takes. https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/does-paying-people-get-vaccinated-work https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/does-paying-people-get-v... Where did they do it that it failed?
- kube-system 5y ago
  Several US states struggling with vaccination rates paid people $100 to get vaccinated, for example: Louisiana and West Virginia https://ldh.la.gov/news/SF100-Extended https://ldh.la.gov/news/SF100-Extended https://www.wboy.com/news/health/coronavirus/watch-live-wv-gov-justice-schedules-thursday-covid-19-briefing-for-1-p-m/ https://www.wboy.com/news/health/coronavirus/watch-live-wv-g... Yet, their vaccination rates still largely follow their political predispositions. I initially thought these plans were a great idea, but I'm not sure that they've been as effective as I hoped.
SnowProblem 5y ago
Don't forget the worst gimmick - Krispy Kreme donuts - when we know the vast majority of deaths are in the overweight. These are tricks for monkeys. And a reminder how little they think of you. You know what would have worked? Maybe a little honesty. Maybe treating people as adults and not constantly lying to them, from masks, to virus origin, natural immunity, vaccine risks, and especially treatments. People aren't stupid. I know many who were open to the vaccine once who are digging in to protest now.
- kube-system 5y ago
  The problem is that people think they've been lied to when they largely haven't. They've missed all of the nuance because they're looking for absolutes. Science is nuanced and politics is crude. None of those topics you list are dichotomic in nature, yet our political discussions nevertheless dilute them as such.
  - danillonunes 5y ago
    I remember in 2020 at the very beginning when people started to panic buy toilet papers, I read something about WHO saying masks should not be recommended to general public to avoid shortage for health professionals. They meant well, but what I saw at the time was a lot of media outlets turning this message into how masks are bad, innefective, and using one in public is the equivalent of wearing a tinfoil hat. This lasted less than a month, but I wonder how much this helped with the "the media is lying to us" sentiment.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      The same exact thing later happened with vaccines. They were tested to be effective at significantly reducing the severity of illness and death. Public discourse diluted this to "vaccines prevent covid", and then when people got breakthrough cases, some started claiming they "don't work because you can get it anyway".

happytoexplain 5y ago

My observation is that the political polarization of the topic came before any government action, and is the more primary cause of the issue. Government action (both heavy-handed and otherwise) sparks backlash because of the political polarization.

buscoquadnary 5y ago
Honestly I saw it the other way around, when it was first came out the future was uncertain, and there was a lot of confusion the only data we had was untrusted reports from China, I saw a lot of people band together, people looking out for on another general expressions of concern. There were politics involved but it was relatively mild, and ignored by many people it was about two or three months in when much of the news around COVID changed to being news about how Trump was doing what about the virus, and congress what congress was saying about responses to the virus and the usual schlop I noticed things started to get polarized at the same time the estimates were being adjusted from 1-9% fatality rates to 0.3% fatality rates.
- slg 5y ago
  I feel like I am taking crazy pills the way that many on HN constantly seem to imply that the polarization and politicization of the pandemic was caused by the media, scientists, public health officials or anyone else but the last president and many people in his administration. They were immediately trying to shift blame to anyone but themselves. It was the "China virus" from pretty much day 1. He was literally crossing out "Corona" in his speeches and writing in "Chinese"[1] in mid-March. Or do you remember Trumps "I'd love to have it open by Easter" less than a month after the first lockdowns started? It didn't take "two or three months" for it to be politicized as a reactionary measure against Trump. Trump's first reaction was to politicize the situation. [1] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/20/three-phases-trumps-insistence-pointing-out-that-coronavirus-originated-china/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/20/three-pha...
  - falcolas 5y ago
    Imagine, for a moment, the change in reactions had Trump & company declared a "War on Covid". We love wars. A vast majority of Americans have historically gotten behind wars. Wars on drugs. Wars on terror. I dunno how things would have turned out, but it makes me wonder.

daenz 5y ago

People Don't realize that Quebec is banning unvaccinated people from many stores including big box stores (Walmart etc) [0]. The punitive nature is a side effect of creating this new authoritarianism. If you could have new authoritarianism more effectively without punitive measures, I'm sure that's what we would see. 0. https://youtu.be/PtTqEV5aWWY https://youtu.be/PtTqEV5aWWY

awd 5y ago

I think you hit the nail on it's head. Think about it: some countries where these mandates are/were introduced would describe themselves as liberal democracies. We have all these laws that limit the power of government. Forcibly injecting people with the vaccine is obviously not compatible with anything calling itself "liberal". The ideological weakness is self evident. We can't go door to door with police to give everyone the jab, so we wishy-washy try to force people with other measures. Who can respect an authority that lies and betrays one of its core principles? How can one respect a government that truly tried to outlaw natural human behavior? Talk about heavy handed.

JohnTHaller 5y ago

We had a big issue way before the vaccine mandates thanks to the absurdity of right-wing media and right-wing politicians' conspiracy theories. And subsequent pushing of ineffective treatments. There are still people here in the US who believe that ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, z-packs, and steroids will save them if they get it. And they're unvaccinated. My friend's sibling just died two months ago. Otherwise healthy and everything. Not old. But in a red county with lots of Fox News watchers, so they'd avoided the vaccine. Sad thing is, the rest of the family finally talked them into getting it and they were scheduled but got Covid the week before. Dead a month later.

kcplate 5y ago
> We had a big issue way before the vaccine mandates thanks to the absurdity of right-wing media and right-wing politicians' conspiracy theories Honestly, I feel like the pandemic politics predated all the right wing conspiracy theories emergence. The democrats/progressive left/resisters decision to make Covid the central issue to oust Trump is the more likely genesis. Very early on (Jan/Feb 2020) everything the Trump administration was doing was met with immediate 180 degree resistance from the progressive left and the left-leaning media. Including things they later supported—Travel bans, social distancing suggestions and yes, even the vaccine too. Before I get accused of being a conservative or a Trumpie…I’m not and far far from it. But…I am not willing to excuse problematic approaches that have negative downstream unintended consequences even if the initial intention may have been positive. Blaming the right is akin to being mad when the person you punched in the nose decides to fight back. How dare they!
- JohnTHaller 5y ago
  > Before I get accused of being a conservative or a Trumpie…I’m not and far far from it. Your comment history betrays you.
  - kcplate 5y ago
    No it doesn’t. I am a classic liberal and an independent and my comment history reflects that. Just because I don’t hold the established dogmatic progressive opinions on every topic doesn’t mean I am conservative or supported Trump. Don’t make politics a religion.