4 ms·

Apple is reportedly poaching Xbox engineers to make their own console

29 points by astlouis44 5y ago

smoldesu 5y ago
Logistically, I find it very hard to believe that Apple is working on their own console. There have obviously been Apple AR/VR rumors going around for a while, but everything I've heard so far doesn't add up: - Making this kind of play (especially at high-resolution) requires an insane amount of GPU power that just doesn't really exist. On a good day the M1 can bench against a desktop 1050, which doesn't even meet the minimum recommended requirements for low-res PC VR. Quality, modern gaming is straight-up out of the question at that performance profile. - TSMC is maxxed out right now, entering a new product segment might threaten to cannibalize their Mac or iPhone supply chain. - Apple doesn't have a graphics API that anyone cares about. Sure, they could use MoltenVK to attempt some ridiculous PCVR compatibility layer, but it's just outright not feasible. This machine is going to need all the overhead it can get, translation layers would murder it's performance in cold blood.
- GiorgioG 5y ago
  Apple isn't hiring these folks to launch a product next year. Whatever these folks are working on will probably take 3+ years to see the light of day.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Apple isn't hiring these folks to launch a product next year. Whatever these folks are working on will probably take 3+ years to see the light of day Apple bought P. A. Semi in 2008 [1]. The M1 launched in 2020 [2]. These moves could easily be in preparation for a move in the 2030s. This sort of planning is what makes Apple special. (Caveat: the A4 launched in ~2010. But the ditching Intel was the titanic move that set the board for.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M1
- tjpnz 5y ago
  With cloud gaming looming large would Apple really be intending to build a home console? Perhaps they're being hired to build out their server infrastructure.
  - _zzaw 5y ago
    I don't see Apple coming out with a whole new device either. They don't have the kind of reputation in the gaming world that Microsoft or Sony has; going head-to-head with those guys now, with an unproven platform, would probably end in failure and damage any future attempts at inroads into the industry. The other thing is that there would very likely be some awkward overlap between an Apple Console and an Apple TV, especially considering Apple's consistency in product design. Having two little black boxes on the market, both of which handle media and neither of which is a computer, would be confusing for consumers. Which doesn't mean Apple isn't interested in gaming. I think they are, a lot. I'd say a more likely scenario is that Apple starts quietly—or not so quietly—beefing up its Apple TV line into something that ultimately turns into a console. Bolster their Metal API, ship an Apple TV with an M5 (or whatever they call 2025/6's version of Apple Silicon), line up some big-name titles that you can rent/buy/stream through the device, and I think they’d be a force to be reckoned with.
    - jolux 5y ago
      Obviously if they come out with a console they won't be selling the Apple TV anymore, except maybe as a low-end option.
      - ahefner 5y ago
        Contrasting the tiny fanless AppleTV boxes with the comically over-sized messes that are the most recent console generation, these products are a galaxy apart.
        smoldesu 5y ago
        The newest, highest-end AppleTV on the market has less than half the raw GPU compute of an Xbox Series X, so... I guess I'm not all that surprised?
- fomine3 5y ago
  Snapdragon XR2 is significantly poor compared with PC GPU (or even with M1) but it runs games in playable quality. Semiconductor shortage won't last forever. There's a cycle. Maybe now is good timing to design new chips that released at a few years later. Anyway Apple can sell their entire device for $$ so they can raise price to pay to TSMC.
- FranksTV 5y ago
  Apple arcade is probably big money for them. These are likely to be casual games. They're not going after the Halo/Call of Duty crowd.
pipeline_peak 5y ago
Apple has never really been one to tap into already established areas of consumer electronics. Even if they did try to compete in console gaming, for the second time, they wouldn't really have an image that would be consistent with their brand. They wouldn't make something high powered to compete with Microsoft and Sony's more hardcore user space. While they share innovation and design styles, they couldn't possibly acquire enough valuable IP to compete with Nintendo. If an Apple console is to come out, it will probably be cloud based and similar to Stadia. I'm not the craziest Apple fan, but I don't think they'd be that boring.
- SahAssar 5y ago
  Portable music players and cellphones were both very established when apple entered those markets. They also tried to enter the console market with the pippin back in the 90s
  - fzzzy 5y ago
    Pippin is why they said apple would be entering the market for the second time
- brnt 5y ago
  > I don't think they'd be that boring. Aren't they though?
- alsaaro 5y ago
  Hmm... Apple does tap into established areas of consumer electronics, with refined products; I do agree with your sentiment, in the sense that if Apple releases a console, it will be very different functionally and aesthetically from anything on the market. As for a cloud based gaming solution, that wouldn't work with their AR/VR headset as the latency would be too high, especially so considering the latency sensitivity of headset based gaming. If Apple is serious about AR/VR, that necessitates a powerful GPU, which we haven't seen from Apple yet, and that implies a physical console.
  - dmz73 5y ago
toolcombinator 5y ago
There’s no doubt that Apple has the building blocks for a console, between the A X/M X SOCs, Metal, Apple Arcade and Apple TV. The only question is if they really want to further overextend themselves. They’re already slipping on software like iOS and OS X (as in: Their software is becoming WORSE, not better.) while trying to break into TV and cars. Their hardware lineup is becoming more confusing and fragmented, not less. Not really sure if Apple NEEDS another distraction right now.
mgh2 5y ago
Why would they spend capital for hardware when they can wait for cloud gaming technology to mature, making the console industry obsolete? https://www.macrumors.com/2021/10/18/apple-considered-launching-cloud-gaming-service/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/10/18/apple-considered-launch...
i386 5y ago
If anything Nintendo should be scared, not Sony or Microsoft. Casual gaming is within their reach.
FractalHQ 5y ago
Wait… I can’t play video games on my extremely powerful MacBook Pro without Windows Bootcamp… and now Apple is making a gaming console? I already have a powerful computer. Consoles are backwards in evolution of gaming unless you consider the price, and I’m sure an Apple console wouldn’t be cheap. Like others stated, cloud gaming would even make more sense. This probably annoys me more than it should.. but I’m resentful towards Apple for making computers incapable of running modern video games.
ozten 5y ago
Apple had been collaborating with Valve (not clear if this ended/went south) and is rumored to release a mixed reality headset in the next 1 - 2 years and a lightweight AR glasses in 3 - 5 years by Chinese tech reports. 2022 product launch delayed due to over-heating.

29 points by astlouis44 5y ago

Logistically, I find it very hard to believe that Apple is working on their own console. There have obviously been Apple AR/VR rumors going around for a while, but everything I've heard so far doesn't add up: - Making this kind of play (especially at high-resolution) requires an insane amount of GPU power that just doesn't really exist. On a good day the M1 can bench against a desktop 1050, which doesn't even meet the minimum recommended requirements for low-res PC VR. Quality, modern gaming is straight-up out of the question at that performance profile. - TSMC is maxxed out right now, entering a new product segment might threaten to cannibalize their Mac or iPhone supply chain. - Apple doesn't have a graphics API that anyone cares about. Sure, they could use MoltenVK to attempt some ridiculous PCVR compatibility layer, but it's just outright not feasible. This machine is going to need all the overhead it can get, translation layers would murder it's performance in cold blood.

GiorgioG 5y ago
Apple isn't hiring these folks to launch a product next year. Whatever these folks are working on will probably take 3+ years to see the light of day.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Apple isn't hiring these folks to launch a product next year. Whatever these folks are working on will probably take 3+ years to see the light of day Apple bought P. A. Semi in 2008 [1]. The M1 launched in 2020 [2]. These moves could easily be in preparation for a move in the 2030s. This sort of planning is what makes Apple special. (Caveat: the A4 launched in ~2010. But the ditching Intel was the titanic move that set the board for.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M1
tjpnz 5y ago
With cloud gaming looming large would Apple really be intending to build a home console? Perhaps they're being hired to build out their server infrastructure.
- _zzaw 5y ago
  I don't see Apple coming out with a whole new device either. They don't have the kind of reputation in the gaming world that Microsoft or Sony has; going head-to-head with those guys now, with an unproven platform, would probably end in failure and damage any future attempts at inroads into the industry. The other thing is that there would very likely be some awkward overlap between an Apple Console and an Apple TV, especially considering Apple's consistency in product design. Having two little black boxes on the market, both of which handle media and neither of which is a computer, would be confusing for consumers. Which doesn't mean Apple isn't interested in gaming. I think they are, a lot. I'd say a more likely scenario is that Apple starts quietly—or not so quietly—beefing up its Apple TV line into something that ultimately turns into a console. Bolster their Metal API, ship an Apple TV with an M5 (or whatever they call 2025/6's version of Apple Silicon), line up some big-name titles that you can rent/buy/stream through the device, and I think they’d be a force to be reckoned with.
  - jolux 5y ago
    Obviously if they come out with a console they won't be selling the Apple TV anymore, except maybe as a low-end option.
    - ahefner 5y ago
      Contrasting the tiny fanless AppleTV boxes with the comically over-sized messes that are the most recent console generation, these products are a galaxy apart.
      - smoldesu 5y ago
        The newest, highest-end AppleTV on the market has less than half the raw GPU compute of an Xbox Series X, so... I guess I'm not all that surprised?
fomine3 5y ago
Snapdragon XR2 is significantly poor compared with PC GPU (or even with M1) but it runs games in playable quality. Semiconductor shortage won't last forever. There's a cycle. Maybe now is good timing to design new chips that released at a few years later. Anyway Apple can sell their entire device for $$ so they can raise price to pay to TSMC.
FranksTV 5y ago
Apple arcade is probably big money for them. These are likely to be casual games. They're not going after the Halo/Call of Duty crowd.

pipeline_peak 5y ago

Apple has never really been one to tap into already established areas of consumer electronics. Even if they did try to compete in console gaming, for the second time, they wouldn't really have an image that would be consistent with their brand. They wouldn't make something high powered to compete with Microsoft and Sony's more hardcore user space. While they share innovation and design styles, they couldn't possibly acquire enough valuable IP to compete with Nintendo. If an Apple console is to come out, it will probably be cloud based and similar to Stadia. I'm not the craziest Apple fan, but I don't think they'd be that boring.

SahAssar 5y ago
Portable music players and cellphones were both very established when apple entered those markets. They also tried to enter the console market with the pippin back in the 90s
- fzzzy 5y ago
  Pippin is why they said apple would be entering the market for the second time
brnt 5y ago
> I don't think they'd be that boring. Aren't they though?
alsaaro 5y ago
Hmm... Apple does tap into established areas of consumer electronics, with refined products; I do agree with your sentiment, in the sense that if Apple releases a console, it will be very different functionally and aesthetically from anything on the market. As for a cloud based gaming solution, that wouldn't work with their AR/VR headset as the latency would be too high, especially so considering the latency sensitivity of headset based gaming. If Apple is serious about AR/VR, that necessitates a powerful GPU, which we haven't seen from Apple yet, and that implies a physical console.
- dmz73 5y ago

toolcombinator 5y ago

There’s no doubt that Apple has the building blocks for a console, between the A X/M X SOCs, Metal, Apple Arcade and Apple TV. The only question is if they really want to further overextend themselves. They’re already slipping on software like iOS and OS X (as in: Their software is becoming WORSE, not better.) while trying to break into TV and cars. Their hardware lineup is becoming more confusing and fragmented, not less. Not really sure if Apple NEEDS another distraction right now.

mgh2 5y ago

Why would they spend capital for hardware when they can wait for cloud gaming technology to mature, making the console industry obsolete? https://www.macrumors.com/2021/10/18/apple-considered-launching-cloud-gaming-service/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/10/18/apple-considered-launch...

i386 5y ago

If anything Nintendo should be scared, not Sony or Microsoft. Casual gaming is within their reach.

FractalHQ 5y ago

Wait… I can’t play video games on my extremely powerful MacBook Pro without Windows Bootcamp… and now Apple is making a gaming console? I already have a powerful computer. Consoles are backwards in evolution of gaming unless you consider the price, and I’m sure an Apple console wouldn’t be cheap. Like others stated, cloud gaming would even make more sense. This probably annoys me more than it should.. but I’m resentful towards Apple for making computers incapable of running modern video games.

ozten 5y ago

Apple had been collaborating with Valve (not clear if this ended/went south) and is rumored to release a mixed reality headset in the next 1 - 2 years and a lightweight AR glasses in 3 - 5 years by Chinese tech reports. 2022 product launch delayed due to over-heating.