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> there's no technical reason to use poison Yes, there is. Methanol and ethanol are very chemically similar and small amounts of methanol in your ethanol is us

> there's no technical reason to use poison Yes, there is. Methanol and ethanol are very chemically similar and small amounts of methanol in your ethanol is usually acceptable from a chemical standpoint. But denatonium benzoate is not like ethanol, and can be a contaminant that destroys the process. To get around this, you either have to find old-fashioned methylated spirits in very high purity, pay the alcohol taxes (which are stratospheric on 200 proof...), or file a crapton of paperwork to buy ethanol tax-free because you're doing chemistry things with it, not drinking it. The latter is what big operations do, but it's a giant pain in the ass if you are not a big operation and you just need moderate volumes of high purity alcohol for your critical cleaning operations....

AlotOfReading 5y ago
Labs aren't buying their stuff at Walmart, so I don't know why they'd by affected by any remotely reasonable law. The supply houses can keep selling methylated alcohol, but let's get the unnecessary poisons off store shelves and out of consumer cabinets.
- exmadscientist 5y ago
  No disagreement from me. I'm just saying there is a technical reason to use methanol denaturants sometimes.
  - Shared404 5y ago
    > exmadscientist Username checks out, any fun stories to share? I find most people who've worked in lab's have at least one.
    - exmadscientist 5y ago
      Not as many as I'd like. Or maybe I just need to become a better storyteller.
      - hansvm 5y ago
        Probably the latter. You might not even need to become better; just tell a few more stories and find yourself shocked at what we all find entertaining.
- martyvis 5y ago
  Except 100% ethanol would be considered a poison too. 100ml (4 ounces) could likely kill a 5 year old child. https://www.alcohol.org.nz/alcohol-its-effects/health-effects/alcohol-poisoning https://www.alcohol.org.nz/alcohol-its-effects/health-effect...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - vimacs2 5y ago
    Who is giving 5 year olds 100% pure ethanol or ethanol at all for that matter?
    - nfriedly 5y ago
      Nobody gives it to them. 5-year-olds have sufficient intelligence and dexterity to get into all kinds of things, but don't necessarily know not to eat/drink/play with it, etc.
      - selectodude 5y ago
        I'm somewhat of a lush and the idea of drinking two shots of 190 proof ethanol sounds like an excellent way to purge my stomach. I'd be impressed by any baby who could keep that down even if they got past the rank stench. Any baby that extreme would almost certainly survive.
  - AlotOfReading 5y ago
    And if you denature that, it's almost twice as toxic because methanol is so much nastier. Hopefully I don't need to point out why completely banning alcohols is a rather different conversation.
  - exmadscientist 5y ago
    Absolute alcohol (200 proof ethanol) has a number of ways to kill you. It's slightly poisonous on its own. It's a massively powerful dessicator, so it can turn tissue into leather. And, if you've got industrial quantities of the stuff, it's probably not quite pure: turns out you can't just distill it past 190 proof due to water and ethanol forming an azeotrope. To push past that limit requires azeotropic distillation using such fun substances as cyclohexane, benzene, and isooctane, and they definitely do exist in the final distillation output. Most of these are rather more poisonous than ethanol on their own, so you don't want to drink them. So don't bloody well drink anything above 190 proof, ever, no exceptions! Though when you're going through 55-gallon drums of it to clean clean-room equipment, a lot of it tends to end up in the air... turns out you can get enough alcohol in the air to get noticeable effects on you. Like I said, lots of ways to kill you.
- djtango 5y ago
  Except this is why chemistry is less entrepreneurial - you can't just set up a lab in your shed (for better and for worse) And so now I write code for a living instead of trying to push the frontiers of medical chemistry :) FYI I fully get why many chemicals are fully regulated. I recall a funny story from uni and how only the big boss head of the entire chemistry org had the authorisation to handle lysergic acid (precursor to LSD) and he had to be supervised while pouring it/measuring it for your experiment.
  - salamandersauce 5y ago
    As kid I had a reprint of the Boy Mechanic from the turn of the 20th century. Sooo many of the activities involved going to a pharmacy and getting X dangerous compound or element that I doubt most pharmacies today even carry let alone would sell to a 12 year old kid.
  - tasogare 5y ago
    > Except this is why chemistry is less entrepreneurial - you can't just set up a lab in your shed (for better and for worse) Given the number of wannabes PhD in chemistry having peaceful religious beliefs that are entering in EU every year, this is really for the better.
    - brippalcharrid 5y ago
      'tis a tranquilizing prospect.
Gigachad 5y ago
Can you distill out the denatonium? I'm guessing it would just be too much work to make it worth it if so?

AlotOfReading 5y ago

Labs aren't buying their stuff at Walmart, so I don't know why they'd by affected by any remotely reasonable law. The supply houses can keep selling methylated alcohol, but let's get the unnecessary poisons off store shelves and out of consumer cabinets.

exmadscientist 5y ago
No disagreement from me. I'm just saying there is a technical reason to use methanol denaturants sometimes.
- Shared404 5y ago
  > exmadscientist Username checks out, any fun stories to share? I find most people who've worked in lab's have at least one.
  - exmadscientist 5y ago
    Not as many as I'd like. Or maybe I just need to become a better storyteller.
    - hansvm 5y ago
      Probably the latter. You might not even need to become better; just tell a few more stories and find yourself shocked at what we all find entertaining.
martyvis 5y ago
Except 100% ethanol would be considered a poison too. 100ml (4 ounces) could likely kill a 5 year old child. https://www.alcohol.org.nz/alcohol-its-effects/health-effects/alcohol-poisoning https://www.alcohol.org.nz/alcohol-its-effects/health-effect...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- vimacs2 5y ago
  Who is giving 5 year olds 100% pure ethanol or ethanol at all for that matter?
  - nfriedly 5y ago
    Nobody gives it to them. 5-year-olds have sufficient intelligence and dexterity to get into all kinds of things, but don't necessarily know not to eat/drink/play with it, etc.
    - selectodude 5y ago
      I'm somewhat of a lush and the idea of drinking two shots of 190 proof ethanol sounds like an excellent way to purge my stomach. I'd be impressed by any baby who could keep that down even if they got past the rank stench. Any baby that extreme would almost certainly survive.
- AlotOfReading 5y ago
  And if you denature that, it's almost twice as toxic because methanol is so much nastier. Hopefully I don't need to point out why completely banning alcohols is a rather different conversation.
- exmadscientist 5y ago
  Absolute alcohol (200 proof ethanol) has a number of ways to kill you. It's slightly poisonous on its own. It's a massively powerful dessicator, so it can turn tissue into leather. And, if you've got industrial quantities of the stuff, it's probably not quite pure: turns out you can't just distill it past 190 proof due to water and ethanol forming an azeotrope. To push past that limit requires azeotropic distillation using such fun substances as cyclohexane, benzene, and isooctane, and they definitely do exist in the final distillation output. Most of these are rather more poisonous than ethanol on their own, so you don't want to drink them. So don't bloody well drink anything above 190 proof, ever, no exceptions! Though when you're going through 55-gallon drums of it to clean clean-room equipment, a lot of it tends to end up in the air... turns out you can get enough alcohol in the air to get noticeable effects on you. Like I said, lots of ways to kill you.
djtango 5y ago
Except this is why chemistry is less entrepreneurial - you can't just set up a lab in your shed (for better and for worse) And so now I write code for a living instead of trying to push the frontiers of medical chemistry :) FYI I fully get why many chemicals are fully regulated. I recall a funny story from uni and how only the big boss head of the entire chemistry org had the authorisation to handle lysergic acid (precursor to LSD) and he had to be supervised while pouring it/measuring it for your experiment.
- salamandersauce 5y ago
  As kid I had a reprint of the Boy Mechanic from the turn of the 20th century. Sooo many of the activities involved going to a pharmacy and getting X dangerous compound or element that I doubt most pharmacies today even carry let alone would sell to a 12 year old kid.
- tasogare 5y ago
  > Except this is why chemistry is less entrepreneurial - you can't just set up a lab in your shed (for better and for worse) Given the number of wannabes PhD in chemistry having peaceful religious beliefs that are entering in EU every year, this is really for the better.
  - brippalcharrid 5y ago
    'tis a tranquilizing prospect.

Gigachad 5y ago

Can you distill out the denatonium? I'm guessing it would just be too much work to make it worth it if so?