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Note that non-toxic does not mean edible, as the FDA recently clarified due to many people being severely poisoned from eating cakes decorated with luster dust

Note that non-toxic does not mean edible, as the FDA recently clarified due to many people being severely poisoned from eating cakes decorated with luster dust meant for crafting. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7043a2.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7043a2.htm You would think that if something says non-toxic, licking it shouldn't kill you, but apparently not.

School-Cotton 5y ago
What _does_ it mean, then?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Sebb767 5y ago
If anyone else is wondering, the only somewhat concise explanation I found was this[0]: > Non-toxic is essentially a placebo term and unlike food-safe or food-grade products, has little to no government regulation in terms of its accuracy. [...] > What non-toxic means is that the product contains no ingredients that have been linked to toxic responses in humans. Toxic responses are things like hormone disruption, poisoning, or cancer. [0] https://www.greenmatters.com/p/does-non-toxic-mean-food-safe https://www.greenmatters.com/p/does-non-toxic-mean-food-safe
earthscienceman 5y ago
Wait. WTF does non-toxic mean then? Non-toxic to touch? I don't fathom what they're trying to communicate then..
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
matheusmoreira 5y ago
Dose makes the poison. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8351798/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8351798/ > The toxicity of denatonium benzoate is low with acute po LD50's in rats of 485-740 mg/kg. https://www.chemsrc.com/en/cas/3734-33-6_1028011.html https://www.chemsrc.com/en/cas/3734-33-6_1028011.html TYPE OF TEST: LD50 - Lethal dose, 50 percent kill ROUTE OF EXPOSURE: Oral SPECIES OBSERVED: Rodent - rat DOSE/DURATION: 584 mg/kg DOSE/DURATION: 508 mg/kg Non-toxic definitely means that common exposure to the product shouldn't pose serious risks to one's health. In other words, licking a Nintendo Switch cartridge should not result in a dose of denatonium anywhere near high enough to cause any deleterious health effects. Drinking entire bottles of the stuff probably will. This luster dust apparently contains lead, how these manufacturers managed to conclude that it is non-toxic is beyond me.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Kinda makes you wonder what the relative toxicity of a Switch cartridge is. Some labcoat at Nintendo probably ran the number for this one on the weekend.
- kragen 5y ago
  Apparently one of the "luster dusts" was 25% lead, and another was pure copper dust, which is also pretty toxic if ingested. Lead sulfide (galena) is 86% lead, shiny when in large crystals and probably low enough toxicity that you could label it as "nontoxic". https://www.mindat.org/mesg-361788.html https://www.mindat.org/mesg-361788.html says the oral LD50 of galena in guinea pigs is 10000 mg/kg, which is about three or four times less acutely toxic than table salt. But table salt doesn't accumulate in your bones and brain over time, so seasoning all your food with galena would still be worse for you, even if you didn't chip your teeth. I thought lead metal was maybe also inert enough to prevent lead poisoning from metal ingestion—just as you can drink substantial quantities of metallic mercury with no ill effects—but that turns out to be wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead#Toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead#Toxicity says, "Most ingested lead is absorbed into the bloodstream," and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#Lead-containing_products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#Lead-containing... says, "Ingestion of metallic lead, such as small lead fishing lures, increases blood lead levels and can be fatal.[126][127][128][129]"
  - kortex 5y ago
    Yeah none of those luster dust formulations should qualify as "non-toxic" in my book. Copper and lead salts are not only acutely and chronically toxic to humans, they can be disastrous to aquatic life if they get into water ways. Cu powder gets a solid GHS09: dead fish. Suprisingly does not get the the Health Hazard GHS8. PbS gets GHS7/8/9, right proper toxic. Maybe they mean it's not acutely toxic? Usually either short or long term toxicity is more than sufficient to call something "toxic".
    - kragen 5y ago
      Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's just a negligent error? I'm not going to try eating some copper powder to find out, but I'd expect stomach acid to yield a substantial amount of highly soluble copper chloride. I guess I could try vomiting on some copper powder. But I won't.
NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
One of the basic principles of toxicology is "the dose makes the poison". From an OSHA perspective, "toxic" means (amongst other things) a mean-lethal-dose (LD50) of up to 500 mg per kilogram of bodyweight when ingested orally in lab rats. There's all kind of stuff that doesn't meet the standard of toxic that you still wouldn't want to eat.
- yread 5y ago
  So at LD50 of 508 mg/kg you could call it "barely non-toxic"
- LorenPechtel 5y ago
  And there's stuff that is toxic that you do want to eat. Check your multivitamin, there's stuff in there that would kill you at that level.
  - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
    Also, for example, aspirin.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > One of the basic principles of toxicology is "the dose makes the poison". That's a given, but this this is something where it comes in a small jar to sprinkle with and a single spoonful is dangerous.

School-Cotton 5y ago

What _does_ it mean, then?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Sebb767 5y ago

If anyone else is wondering, the only somewhat concise explanation I found was this[0]: > Non-toxic is essentially a placebo term and unlike food-safe or food-grade products, has little to no government regulation in terms of its accuracy. [...] > What non-toxic means is that the product contains no ingredients that have been linked to toxic responses in humans. Toxic responses are things like hormone disruption, poisoning, or cancer. [0] https://www.greenmatters.com/p/does-non-toxic-mean-food-safe https://www.greenmatters.com/p/does-non-toxic-mean-food-safe

earthscienceman 5y ago

Wait. WTF does non-toxic mean then? Non-toxic to touch? I don't fathom what they're trying to communicate then..

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

matheusmoreira 5y ago

Dose makes the poison. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8351798/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8351798/ > The toxicity of denatonium benzoate is low with acute po LD50's in rats of 485-740 mg/kg. https://www.chemsrc.com/en/cas/3734-33-6_1028011.html https://www.chemsrc.com/en/cas/3734-33-6_1028011.html TYPE OF TEST: LD50 - Lethal dose, 50 percent kill ROUTE OF EXPOSURE: Oral SPECIES OBSERVED: Rodent - rat DOSE/DURATION: 584 mg/kg DOSE/DURATION: 508 mg/kg Non-toxic definitely means that common exposure to the product shouldn't pose serious risks to one's health. In other words, licking a Nintendo Switch cartridge should not result in a dose of denatonium anywhere near high enough to cause any deleterious health effects. Drinking entire bottles of the stuff probably will. This luster dust apparently contains lead, how these manufacturers managed to conclude that it is non-toxic is beyond me.

smoldesu 5y ago
Kinda makes you wonder what the relative toxicity of a Switch cartridge is. Some labcoat at Nintendo probably ran the number for this one on the weekend.
kragen 5y ago
Apparently one of the "luster dusts" was 25% lead, and another was pure copper dust, which is also pretty toxic if ingested. Lead sulfide (galena) is 86% lead, shiny when in large crystals and probably low enough toxicity that you could label it as "nontoxic". https://www.mindat.org/mesg-361788.html https://www.mindat.org/mesg-361788.html says the oral LD50 of galena in guinea pigs is 10000 mg/kg, which is about three or four times less acutely toxic than table salt. But table salt doesn't accumulate in your bones and brain over time, so seasoning all your food with galena would still be worse for you, even if you didn't chip your teeth. I thought lead metal was maybe also inert enough to prevent lead poisoning from metal ingestion—just as you can drink substantial quantities of metallic mercury with no ill effects—but that turns out to be wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead#Toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead#Toxicity says, "Most ingested lead is absorbed into the bloodstream," and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#Lead-containing_products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#Lead-containing... says, "Ingestion of metallic lead, such as small lead fishing lures, increases blood lead levels and can be fatal.[126][127][128][129]"
- kortex 5y ago
  Yeah none of those luster dust formulations should qualify as "non-toxic" in my book. Copper and lead salts are not only acutely and chronically toxic to humans, they can be disastrous to aquatic life if they get into water ways. Cu powder gets a solid GHS09: dead fish. Suprisingly does not get the the Health Hazard GHS8. PbS gets GHS7/8/9, right proper toxic. Maybe they mean it's not acutely toxic? Usually either short or long term toxicity is more than sufficient to call something "toxic".
  - kragen 5y ago
    Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's just a negligent error? I'm not going to try eating some copper powder to find out, but I'd expect stomach acid to yield a substantial amount of highly soluble copper chloride. I guess I could try vomiting on some copper powder. But I won't.

NovemberWhiskey 5y ago

One of the basic principles of toxicology is "the dose makes the poison". From an OSHA perspective, "toxic" means (amongst other things) a mean-lethal-dose (LD50) of up to 500 mg per kilogram of bodyweight when ingested orally in lab rats. There's all kind of stuff that doesn't meet the standard of toxic that you still wouldn't want to eat.

yread 5y ago
So at LD50 of 508 mg/kg you could call it "barely non-toxic"
LorenPechtel 5y ago
And there's stuff that is toxic that you do want to eat. Check your multivitamin, there's stuff in there that would kill you at that level.
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  Also, for example, aspirin.
Dylan16807 5y ago
> One of the basic principles of toxicology is "the dose makes the poison". That's a given, but this this is something where it comes in a small jar to sprinkle with and a single spoonful is dangerous.