5 ms·

I'm sure others will cover the shorter-term aspects. I'll add that, particularly if you're not young or have a family, it wouldn't hurt to consider the fact tha

I'm sure others will cover the shorter-term aspects. I'll add that, particularly if you're not young or have a family, it wouldn't hurt to consider the fact that you will probably have a great time for the first N years, but there might be a slump when you realize that you will probably never really integrate and will have a smaller social circle because of it, in a place where people seem to have smaller casual groups of friends, in general. I live in Switzerland, which is particularly harsh on this front - I do not hope to really integrate and accept that as a cost of the other benefits of being here - maybe my grandchildren will. I think it's fair to say that in America, you're American a lot faster.

interator7 5y ago
What do you mean by integrate? As in, it's harder to find friends? Or that there's cultural issues barring you from being as close friends as you would someone from the U.S.?
- lordnacho 5y ago
  Not the GP, but I think you might find in Switzerland (I lived there) that it's not so easy to make friends. When I'm in America, people will just straight up come up to me and talk, so the culture seems to be a bit more open. In Switzerland, socializing is quite different. For a start, there's a local language that isn't the one they teach you in language classes. It also appears much of the socializing happens around existing institutions, eg your school friends, or the rowing club, all things that as a newcomer you won't have a history with.
  - distances 5y ago
    Yeah in quite a few countries in Europe nobody will just spontaneously talk to you unless they're drunk or a bit weird. However, many will also be delighted if you start the discussion as a foreigner. That's much less likely to come off as weird as some leeway will be afforded for other cultures.
  - bogomipz 5y ago
    Is this true in all parts of Switzerland? Or is it not an issue in the cities like Zurich, Geneva etc?
    - lordnacho 5y ago
      Hard to know. Of course in ZH you can find a lot of expats to hang out with, but that doesn't necessarily mean the locals are easier to get close to.
- xtracto 5y ago
  I (Mexican, with Mexican wife) lived in Germany for 4 years while doing research in a Leibniz Institute. At some point my wife and I talked with a German colleague about how difficult it was for us to make acquaintances or friends while living there. This colleague mentioned that it was the same for her, who was German but from a different part of Germany (like, we were in the East part of Germany and she was from the Northern part). She mentioned that Germans for the most part make their friends groups in the first ~18 years of their lives, and afterwards it is difficult to make friends. Also reminds me of a time I was in the UK, walking with a German girl, near a train station. We saw a person who looked pretty lost (I think he had luggage and was looking at a wall map... al in all he looked confused). I approached this guy and asked him whether he needed help. He replied with a German accent, and he was indeed lost and was looking for some place. I proceeded to give him instructions on how to get to where he was going. During all this time, my German friend was a bit further away from us. After I finished helping the guy she found it amusing how I approached the person and talked to him "out of nowhere". She told me that in Germany you don't normally approach people that you don't know like that. I asked her, "then how do you make new friends?" to what she responded that maybe only by introduction form a third party. Anglo Saxon culture was quite a strong culture shock for me as a Latino.
  - vmception 5y ago
    Yeah something happened to me like that with Germans in Vienna at a station. I knocked over a beggar’s drink and he yelled, and I was apologizing (like in a “my bad, bro”) and was going to give him a few euro coins, and my friends were pulling me away like this was the most absurd thing! He wasn't dangerous and was very glad I stopped. Even if it was a ploy by always having a drink on the sidewalk to be knocked over, I was going to use the change on drugs too and still would because i had more change.
m_fayer 5y ago
I'm in Berlin and feel fully integrated here. Whether or not that's possible really depends on location, there's many in Europe where it absolutely is.
- allendoerfer 5y ago
  The downside is, Berlin is not really integrated into Germany.
  - lm28469 5y ago
    Pretty much that, you can be integrated in Berlin without speaking German nor interacting with german people
    - busterarm 5y ago
      You can but most people will give you shit for not speaking German. Some of them are extremely rude about it too. Even/especially if you're quite obviously a tourist. And where the hell are the non-smokers hiding? That said...NY's Central Park doesn't have shit on Tiergarten. Literally one of the most beautiful places I've been on the planet.
      - m_fayer 5y ago
        Check out Tempelhofer feld, not exactly beautiful but utterly unique.
      - shankr 5y ago
        > That said...NY's Central Park doesn't have shit on Tiergarten Someone said it too! I have had few arguments with people, mostly New Yorkers, over this.
        busterarm 5y ago
        Well, I'm a New Yorker and they're dead wrong.
pimterry 5y ago
I think this depends a lot on the culture. I've found (in Barcelona) that it was hard to integrate initially due to language barriers and lack of an existing local network to bootstrap from, but over time those issues have disappeared. 6 years in now, my social circle here is far larger and more diverse than my network in London where I was before. You do need to somehow actively engage yourself with the community though to make this work. Strongly recommend working from a coworking as much as possible. It forces you to frequently meet new people, gives you day-to-day language practice, and really helps to build a network of small connections that eventually power your social life long-term.
- thenoblesunfish 5y ago
  Definitely - how I wish I was surrounded by people from Spain!
eldaisfish 5y ago
This is something that doesn't get talked about often and i'm glad you brought it up. For all its flaws, the US (and Canada) are societies built around inclusion. Anyone can become American or Canadian and they have. In North America, you are allowed to retain your original identity and flaunt your culture. In Europe, you must become only French, or only Dutch or only Italian. Your original identity is often erased. Europe is a society fractured along lines of ethnicity and don't let anyone here tell you that ethnicity is not a huge part of identity. In europe, you are merely tolerated, you will never truly integrate and be accepted as "one of us". This is very evident in the words of non-white footballers like Ziyech and Ozil, one of whom is an EU citizen but plays for an African country. "Us" in the European context involves a specific ethnicity and this fact is very evident to people of colour in Europe. You can certainly find individual europeans who buck this trend but the overall pressure from society is very different and this is the aspect a lot of people miss. While europe's quality of life is great, what i'm getting at is a long-term problem that cannot be solved. And mind you, this is true everywhere in the old world as every society there is built around ethnicity.
- oaiey 5y ago
  While being a bit harsh, this is indeed overall one of the biggest issues foreigners actually have: if you accept language and culture and adapt yourself into it, you love it. If you reject it Europe/that country is not your place. You will never feel home then or create a social web outside of the expat community. I have seen so many cases of both cases here in Europe.
  - eldaisfish 5y ago
    For the record - the point you appear to be making is that language and culture are the only two components of societal acceptance. I am arguing that in a society based around ethnicity, ethnicity is another important part of societal acceptance. This is not harsh, this is reality. Do you remember the reaction from French media and even the French ambassador to the US when a comedian pointed out that Africans won the 2018 football world cup? The defining characteristic of all their reactions was an attempt to erase or deny the African origins of footballers like Pogba, Kante, Kounde, Ben Yedder etc.
bogomipz 5y ago
Where in Switzerland are you? How long have you been there?

interator7 5y ago

What do you mean by integrate? As in, it's harder to find friends? Or that there's cultural issues barring you from being as close friends as you would someone from the U.S.?

lordnacho 5y ago
Not the GP, but I think you might find in Switzerland (I lived there) that it's not so easy to make friends. When I'm in America, people will just straight up come up to me and talk, so the culture seems to be a bit more open. In Switzerland, socializing is quite different. For a start, there's a local language that isn't the one they teach you in language classes. It also appears much of the socializing happens around existing institutions, eg your school friends, or the rowing club, all things that as a newcomer you won't have a history with.
- distances 5y ago
  Yeah in quite a few countries in Europe nobody will just spontaneously talk to you unless they're drunk or a bit weird. However, many will also be delighted if you start the discussion as a foreigner. That's much less likely to come off as weird as some leeway will be afforded for other cultures.
- bogomipz 5y ago
  Is this true in all parts of Switzerland? Or is it not an issue in the cities like Zurich, Geneva etc?
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    Hard to know. Of course in ZH you can find a lot of expats to hang out with, but that doesn't necessarily mean the locals are easier to get close to.
xtracto 5y ago
I (Mexican, with Mexican wife) lived in Germany for 4 years while doing research in a Leibniz Institute. At some point my wife and I talked with a German colleague about how difficult it was for us to make acquaintances or friends while living there. This colleague mentioned that it was the same for her, who was German but from a different part of Germany (like, we were in the East part of Germany and she was from the Northern part). She mentioned that Germans for the most part make their friends groups in the first ~18 years of their lives, and afterwards it is difficult to make friends. Also reminds me of a time I was in the UK, walking with a German girl, near a train station. We saw a person who looked pretty lost (I think he had luggage and was looking at a wall map... al in all he looked confused). I approached this guy and asked him whether he needed help. He replied with a German accent, and he was indeed lost and was looking for some place. I proceeded to give him instructions on how to get to where he was going. During all this time, my German friend was a bit further away from us. After I finished helping the guy she found it amusing how I approached the person and talked to him "out of nowhere". She told me that in Germany you don't normally approach people that you don't know like that. I asked her, "then how do you make new friends?" to what she responded that maybe only by introduction form a third party. Anglo Saxon culture was quite a strong culture shock for me as a Latino.
- vmception 5y ago
  Yeah something happened to me like that with Germans in Vienna at a station. I knocked over a beggar’s drink and he yelled, and I was apologizing (like in a “my bad, bro”) and was going to give him a few euro coins, and my friends were pulling me away like this was the most absurd thing! He wasn't dangerous and was very glad I stopped. Even if it was a ploy by always having a drink on the sidewalk to be knocked over, I was going to use the change on drugs too and still would because i had more change.

m_fayer 5y ago

I'm in Berlin and feel fully integrated here. Whether or not that's possible really depends on location, there's many in Europe where it absolutely is.

allendoerfer 5y ago
The downside is, Berlin is not really integrated into Germany.
- lm28469 5y ago
  Pretty much that, you can be integrated in Berlin without speaking German nor interacting with german people
  - busterarm 5y ago
    You can but most people will give you shit for not speaking German. Some of them are extremely rude about it too. Even/especially if you're quite obviously a tourist. And where the hell are the non-smokers hiding? That said...NY's Central Park doesn't have shit on Tiergarten. Literally one of the most beautiful places I've been on the planet.
    - m_fayer 5y ago
      Check out Tempelhofer feld, not exactly beautiful but utterly unique.
    - shankr 5y ago
      > That said...NY's Central Park doesn't have shit on Tiergarten Someone said it too! I have had few arguments with people, mostly New Yorkers, over this.
      - busterarm 5y ago
        Well, I'm a New Yorker and they're dead wrong.

pimterry 5y ago

I think this depends a lot on the culture. I've found (in Barcelona) that it was hard to integrate initially due to language barriers and lack of an existing local network to bootstrap from, but over time those issues have disappeared. 6 years in now, my social circle here is far larger and more diverse than my network in London where I was before. You do need to somehow actively engage yourself with the community though to make this work. Strongly recommend working from a coworking as much as possible. It forces you to frequently meet new people, gives you day-to-day language practice, and really helps to build a network of small connections that eventually power your social life long-term.

thenoblesunfish 5y ago
Definitely - how I wish I was surrounded by people from Spain!

eldaisfish 5y ago

This is something that doesn't get talked about often and i'm glad you brought it up. For all its flaws, the US (and Canada) are societies built around inclusion. Anyone can become American or Canadian and they have. In North America, you are allowed to retain your original identity and flaunt your culture. In Europe, you must become only French, or only Dutch or only Italian. Your original identity is often erased. Europe is a society fractured along lines of ethnicity and don't let anyone here tell you that ethnicity is not a huge part of identity. In europe, you are merely tolerated, you will never truly integrate and be accepted as "one of us". This is very evident in the words of non-white footballers like Ziyech and Ozil, one of whom is an EU citizen but plays for an African country. "Us" in the European context involves a specific ethnicity and this fact is very evident to people of colour in Europe. You can certainly find individual europeans who buck this trend but the overall pressure from society is very different and this is the aspect a lot of people miss. While europe's quality of life is great, what i'm getting at is a long-term problem that cannot be solved. And mind you, this is true everywhere in the old world as every society there is built around ethnicity.

oaiey 5y ago
While being a bit harsh, this is indeed overall one of the biggest issues foreigners actually have: if you accept language and culture and adapt yourself into it, you love it. If you reject it Europe/that country is not your place. You will never feel home then or create a social web outside of the expat community. I have seen so many cases of both cases here in Europe.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  For the record - the point you appear to be making is that language and culture are the only two components of societal acceptance. I am arguing that in a society based around ethnicity, ethnicity is another important part of societal acceptance. This is not harsh, this is reality. Do you remember the reaction from French media and even the French ambassador to the US when a comedian pointed out that Africans won the 2018 football world cup? The defining characteristic of all their reactions was an attempt to erase or deny the African origins of footballers like Pogba, Kante, Kounde, Ben Yedder etc.

bogomipz 5y ago

Where in Switzerland are you? How long have you been there?