9 ms·

Three Electric-Jaguar Years

clouddrover 5y ago
> Range - So, here’s the thing: Range doesn’t matter. No, really, it doesn’t. False. Of course range matters and making excuses for the limitations of BEVs lacks ambition. Claiming range doesn't matter simply fails to consider what it means when the entire fleet is electric. Over-building the fast charging infrastructure to support a national fleet of low range EVs is wasteful. Longer range means less time at fast chargers and more time slow charging over night. Slow charge infrastructure is much cheaper to build out. The Lucid Air gets 500 miles highway range: https://insideevs.com/reviews/562511/lucid-air-range-test-record/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/562511/lucid-air-range-test-re... Less expensive EVs should aspire to 400 miles range as a minimum.
- zelos 5y ago
  > Slow charge infrastructure is much cheaper to build out. Plus much cheaper to use and (presumably) less damaging to the battery.
- michaelt 5y ago
  > Slow charge infrastructure is much cheaper to build out. At a highway rest stop, why would a fast charger that can charge 1 car in 6 minutes be any more expensive than a bank of slow chargers that can charge 10 cars in 60 minutes?
  - Arnt 5y ago
    While the peak usage is the same, they have other differences. The ten-charger setup will cause many fairly modest load changes on the electricity network, while the one-charger setup will cause a few giant changes. That may plausibly have some impact on the price of the infrastructure needed and what the power company will charge.
  - mauricio 5y ago
    In order to charge 10x faster, you need to deliver 10x the current. That means all the wiring and electronics need to be upgraded to handle the huge increase without melting. Also, the rest stop won't just be installing a single fast charger, it would install more than one. So you can't really compare 10 slow chargers against a single fast one. That means the wiring service for the entire rest stop would likely need to be upgraded as well.
  - rythie 5y ago
    A fast charger has AC-DC converter provide DC power to car, which is expensive. Slow chargers are AC, which are very cheap in comparison.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    In your scenario what you're describing are all DC fast chargers.
- Timshel 5y ago
  Because having a fleet of car with a range of 400miles to commute 50miles is not wasteful ? I like that at the moment the top comment is that people do not have the money to follow the autor ideal and you want even bigger battery pack which is I believe the most expensive part of the car ...
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    There's that lack of ambition. Instead of making excuses for cars with compromises, you want better batteries: cheaper, safer, more energy dense, more power dense, faster charging, more recyclable, longer duty cycle. Batteries need improvement in all metrics.
- 1234letshaveatw 5y ago
  Interesting argument (from a waste perspective). If 99% of all trips are 10-20 miles isn't over-building battery capacity more wasteful than building out charging stations with a much higher utilization? Cars would be more expensive, and, presumably heavier and do more damage to the roads. Charging infrastructure is relatively cheap compared to the millions of additional cells that would require mass quantities of non-renewable resources
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    > Cars would be more expensive, and, presumably heavier and do more damage to the roads. Not with better batteries. Until there are better batteries, use swappable batteries. Or you could always go fuel cell. They do well for long range driving, even in the cold: https://electrek.co/2022/01/03/hyundai-nexo-sets-hydrogen-endurance-record-but-why/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/03/hyundai-nexo-sets-hydrogen-en...
- dominicdoty 5y ago
  This is taken out of context a bit. What's said is that range doesn't matter if you're not doing long hauls (which he defines as 150+ miles). I tend to agree with him, as the majority of drivers are rarely driving over 150 miles in a day. In that case any car with 200+ miles of range will easily meet day to day needs with no fast charging. I've personally found this to be true as I come up on 6 months of EV ownership. I've only needed to fast charge 1x, and that was due to me accidentally not plugging my car in all the way one night. He explained his viewpoint more thoroughly in a post linked just after your quoted line: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2021/09/01/How-Much-Range https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2021/09/01/How-Much-...
  - bagacrap 5y ago
    "with no fast charging" --- this assumes you can charge 150mi overnight, which I cannot in the townhome I'm now renting.
    - dominicdoty 5y ago
      A fair point, but even then 150 is probably on the high end. I commute 60 miles a day and made it through the first ~2 months using only a level 1 home charger (standard wall outlet). My total charge trended down through the week, and then made up for it on the weekend. ~10 hours of level 1 charging gives me about 50-60 miles. Slightly limiting for my commute, but all in all, not impossible to work around.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    > What's said is that range doesn't matter if you're not doing long hauls (which he defines as 150+ miles). Yes, he's only thinking about an individual driver. He's not thinking about the requirements across the entire fleet. There will always be plenty of people doing long hauls across the whole fleet.
- markvdb 5y ago
  There are a few counter arguments to that idea, many of those linked to battery weight. An efficient car with a 40-50 kWh battery could weigh at least 200-250kg less than a 85kWh one. This has a direct effect on: - energy consumption. Having to drag along 250kg is not free. - maintenance cycles. Tires, brakes and more need more frequent maintenance on a heavier car. - road maintenance (!) A simple 7.2 kW charger is more than enough to charge a 40-50 kWh battery overnight. That's plenty for a large majority of use cases. Proper charging infrastructure can help one along on the exceptional further trip. Also, don't underestimate the number of people that don't want or can't spend 5000€ on a car.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    Every point you've made is an argument for ICE vehicles over BEVs. ICE is the no-compromise option in your scenarios. The best BEV you could get under the terms you've set wouldn't be worth owning.
- lazyjones 5y ago
  > Longer range means less time at fast chargers and more time slow charging over night. Slow charge infrastructure is much cheaper to build out. Typical driving profiles already mean that you rarely need fast chargers. The bottleneck will be holiday seasons and similar, when suddenly the demand for fast charging will go up 100-fold or more. > Of course range matters and making excuses for the limitations of BEVs lacks ambition. High-end BEV already have similar range to comparable (on horsepower) ICE cars. They don't need much more.
- dexterdog 5y ago
  The amount of unnecessary battery that you are hauling around for 400+ range is crazy. If anybody is going to go long range they need to do it via a removable boost battery that you can leave at home for the 99% of your driving where you don't need it. I have a plugin that only gets 29 miles of battery and I go for months of time occasionally sipping at the tank before I need to fill up.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    > If anybody is going to go long range they need to do it via a removable boost battery that you can leave at home for the 99% of your driving where you don't need it. Cars with swappable batteries enable you do up- and downsize the pack as needed. Nio does 70 kWh to 100 kWh packs with a 150 kWh option supposedly on the way this year: https://insideevs.com/news/537644/nio-4-million-battery-swaps/ https://insideevs.com/news/537644/nio-4-million-battery-swap... Other brands are introducing cars with swappable batteries as well: https://electrek.co/2022/01/22/geely-backed-maple-leaf-60s-leaked-ahead-of-feb-debut-with-60-sec-battery-swap/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/22/geely-backed-maple-leaf-60s-l... https://thedriven.io/2021/04/28/nsw-based-janus-electric-prepares-road-test-for-exchangeable-battery-for-big-rigs/ https://thedriven.io/2021/04/28/nsw-based-janus-electric-pre...
i_am_proteus 5y ago
The author seems to be myopically fixated on arguments aimed toward people who can afford a nice new car. For those of us with smaller budgets, but who still need a car because of lack of viable alternatives, there still isn't a choice.
- edent 5y ago
  I'm not sure where you are in the world, buy you can buy plenty of 2nd hand EVs. Looks like they start at around £6k. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postcode=w1a1aa&radius=1500&include-delivery-option=on&price-from=6000&fuel-type=Electric https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postc... But, you can lease a brand new low-end EV for around £200-£300 per month.
  - mavhc 5y ago
    I bought a 3 year old Leaf 7 years ago for £6500, apart from tyres, spent £30 on new windscreen wipers, and last week £125 on a suspension thing. 1p/mile, £0 tax per year. And same year model is on sale for more than £6500 today
  - i_am_proteus 5y ago
    Which person trusts the battery on a ten-year-old early-generation electric vehicle? What down payment is required before leasing a new electric vehicle for two or three hundred United Kingdom Quids? How much insurance must be carried for such a vehicle? I do not doubt that the electric vehicle is a fantastic choice for the financially secure person. But many are not so fortunate.
    - edent 5y ago
      The batteries seem to be fine - they're doing better than most people expected. But the dashboard will give you the battery's predicted range. You might as well ask how many people will buy a 10 year old ICE with a knackered gearbox! I paid £250 down, then £250 per month for my last EV. Insurance was roughly the same as an ICE. But that will depend on the driver and area as much as the vehicle. Are there sub £1,000 beaters in the EV market? No. You can buy an ancient petrol Clio - and then keep spending to keep it running. But I daresay it'll cost you more in petrol than you'd save in electricity.
xattt 5y ago
> I mean, what buying a gas car is like in 2022. It’s like holding onto your flip phone in 2012. It’s like trying to find your hotel in a strange city after a red-eye with a paper map. It’s like putting your retirement savings into coal-mining investments. This piece comes from a place of privilege. I bought a gas car out of the necessity of a growing family within the last year. Within my market, there are no options to buy a new electric without waiting for a very, very, very long time. Also, travelling out of province to buy is not an option given the pandemic and a small baby at home.
- taneq 5y ago
  Yeah, it is a bit "why don't you just buy a brand new luxury car every year?"
  - rob74 5y ago
    Well, if he's so environmentally conscious I sure hope he doesn't buy a new electric car every year, and (to be fair) it doesn't sound like that from the article (the "What I'd buy" section starts with "Suppose a meteorite hits [his current car]"). But yeah, the fact that many people still can't afford an EV seems to have slipped his mind...
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      If a meteorite hit his current car, he could buy a luxury EV (or two) with the proceeds he got from selling his meteorite and collector car. I've only ever heard of one over such car, and it fetched a very high price for its 17-year-old owner.
- lhball 5y ago
  It’s a “luxury belief”[1] and it shows that some people either forgot or never really knew how the other half lives. 1: https://quillette.com/2019/11/16/thorstein-veblens-theory-of-the-leisure-class-a-status-update/ https://quillette.com/2019/11/16/thorstein-veblens-theory-of...
- yohannparis 5y ago
tapoxi 5y ago
I leased my first EV this past summer, a VW id4, and had a 240v/30A charger installed at home. I live in the Boston metro area. It's really nice the majority of the time - I never need to go on a gas run, acceleration is _significantly_ better than any previous car I've had, there's much less maintenance involved. Range on longer trips is an issue, with us going to Maine for vacation or to see in-laws in Connecticut we needed to plan around chargers. I was really surprised by the amount of range lost in the winter, going from ~260 miles to ~200. I'm still very happy with the decision, but it feels like we're in early adopter territory for at least five more years.
- mkoubaa 5y ago
  Imo any new EV contract should come with rental car points for this sort of thing
- loudmax 5y ago
  I drive a 2019 Toyota Plug-in Prius. This past summer I was getting about 30 miles of electric range. This morning, it was down to 23 miles. In my case, running out of electric range isn't catastrophic, since it automatically switches to gas when the battery is out. The difference in acceleration performance between gas and electric modes is noticeable. After all, it's a Prius so I'm not winning any drag races, but in electric mode it is very responsive. I'm pretty happy about this car, I feel like I'm getting the best of both worlds. The majority of my driving is electric, without the range anxiety. If my daily commute were longer (mine is about 12 miles each way), that might tip the balance into driving full electric with a longer range or just falling back to gas entirely.
- mikestew 5y ago
  …but it feels like we're in early adopter territory for at least five more years. You’re probably right, but as an owner of one of the first Nissan Leafs to roll off the line (still have it), my spouse and I view the current market as a luxury of choices and any number of which could easily be our only car. Some of it is perspective: folks will comment on the need to find a charger on a road trip, but never mention that they haven’t had to go out of their way on the way home to find gas since…well, since they bought their EV. Some of it is legitimate, since chargers aren’t as common as gas stations. But c’mon, even a 200 mile range on a trip is more “minor inconvenience to find a charger on the map on the dashboard that will route me there” rather than “early adopter”, and that’s just once in a while.
sockpuppet69 5y ago
mdmglr 5y ago
Buying an electric car in 2022 is like buying the iPhone in 2007. I can also make comical platitudes. One thing that struck me while reading this is the author implies that he would consider the Taycan, a car that retails for > 100k USD, if it weren't for the lack of storage space. We are definately not in the same bracket so its hard to take this piece of writing seriously. I certainly cannot and will not consider spending that much on a car. Even the 70k USD asking for an i-pace is too much.
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  > author implies that he would consider the Taycan, a car that retails for > 100k USD Which is the same price as a tesla model x. However I get your main drift. I'm not pissing away 40-80k on a thing that will depreciate 3/4 of that value in 4 years. No matter how much the wife insists, buying a new car is a fool's errand.
  - Handytinge 5y ago
    Looking at used Teslas for sale, almost all of them I can see ~ 3-6 years old in my country are only 10-20% cheaper than new. It seems currently they're depreciating 1/5 max in that 4 years.
    - KaiserPro 5y ago
      Currently all second hand cars in my country are not depreciating, this I suspect is because people are buying 30% less newer cars. (https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/uk-new-car-sales-29-below-pre-pandemic-level-2021-smmt-2022-01-06/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/uk-new-car-sales-29-b...) However Tesla are a special case, despite being single-handedly responsible for bringing down the reliability of the entire EV class, people still love them, and dont sell them (currently there are ~550 onsale in autotrader for the entire of the UK, compared to 440 renualt zoes)
stevespang 5y ago
FpUser 5y ago
>"IF you need to travel 500km (about 300 miles) on a regular basis, AND IF you really can’t handle that trip taking an extra hour, well then, suck it up, live in the past, get a vehicle that’s less reliable and more expensive to run and more damaging to life on Earth" I did not need to read past that. It is truly insulting and inconsiderate. The article is written by a jerk.
- 1970-01-01 5y ago
  The jerk-author ain't wrong. People buy ICE for this very problem.
  - bagacrap 5y ago
    he's wrong in the sense that there are other reasons not to buy electric: * price * options & availability * (for long trips) lack of charging infrastructure along desired route * lack of charging infrastructure at home also kind of a laugh to think that a person who buys a $70k luxury vehicle is saving life on Earth. I guarantee his carbon footprint could be smaller. Who's to judge what's small enough?
    - 1970-01-01 5y ago
      I own an $80k EV and have a quantifiable negative carbon footprint. IMHO negative is small enough for me.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    Being/not being wrong and being a jerk are two different things. As for blanket reason. I have a rich friend. He has Tesla. He does not give a flying fuck about carbon footprint. The only reason he bought is is that famous acceleration.
martythemaniak 5y ago
People shouldn't be upset at any EV owner's perceived elitist tone. The EV transition will last about 10 years and we're all aware that while the future is already here, it's very unevenly distributed. You can assume that everyone understands this, because otherwise we would all have to start every single post/tweet/blog with a long disclaimer/trigger warning about how we're keenly aware of our privilege, a blurb about inequality, a blurb about Wright's Law, etc etc. It'll get very repetitive and obnoxious very quickly. I've had my EV for close to four years now and I "sell" EVs to basically everyone I meet as a hobby. Plenty of people are easy to convince. Yes, most people can't afford them, or the limited options available (until 2021, basically just Tesla) doesn't quite fit their preferences. This is easy, as prices will drop below ICEVs within a few years and all major OEMs will offer EVs. Convincing them isn't about getting them to buy an EV right now, but just to decide that it's their next car. I test drove a Model S in 2013 and was absolutely sold on EVs as the future, even though I didn't purchase a Model 3 until 5 years after that. The tough parts are the people with emotional attachments to fossil fuels. The smells, the noises, the vibrations are all taken as positives. And of course, there is frequently just a lot of plain old FUD about battery fires, being stranded, etc. There's also a lot of machismo and fantastical claims about needing to drive 12hrs in the tundra without stopping, etc. Luckily they're a minority, so simple price moves will get 80% of people to switch.
- jjulius 5y ago
  Preface: EV leasee, believe the future is electric. >The EV transition will last about 10 years... >I test drove a Model S in 2013... And the Model S started selling in 2012 - nine years ago. Would you care to more specifically explain what such a 10-year timeline looks like to you? When does such a timeline even start? Should we include in the "transition" the period where hybrid vehicles were all the rage? >This is easy, as prices will drop below ICEVs within a few years... I'd be very curious to see how long "a few years" is to you, and what data you have that bolsters this point.
  - martythemaniak 5y ago
    I think the 10 year timeline is for new car sales to go from basically nothing to basically everything, but when it occurs depends on the place. In Norway it is roughly 2013-2023. In Germany it might be something like 2018-2018, whereas in North America it's gonna be something like 2020-2030. I don't think we have to worry about old cars, once new car sales are almost entirely EV, then old ICEVs will die a natural death. I think the biggest mistake people make is that they think the transition will be linear, but it's gonna be an exponential S-curve. For a long time it'll look like nothing is happening, then a lot will happen "all of a sudden", but of course, the growth rates will have been the same all the time. Sales roughly double every 3 years, driven by y/y decreases in battery prices. Hard to answer overall because everything depends on local values, gas prices and subsidies, but I think in North America majority new cars will be EVs 2025-2027.
ptomato 5y ago
> I think there are only two EVs that are uncontroversial design triumphs: The Jag and the Porsche Taycan. The Taycan is not the ugliest car ever, but claiming the I-Pace looks good is... certainly a bold stance.
- kingcharles 5y ago
  Looks are all subjective. I've always loved the I-Pace myself. Most electric cars are ugly, as the author says. Including, IMO, Teslas. Audi's new e-Tron GT is pretty nice, though.
LightG 5y ago
Hyundai ioniq 5 is the best all around package on offer at the moment (imo). Looks bad@ss too.
- georgeoliver 5y ago
  Was a passenger in one this past weekend, and it's subjective of course but I don't think it's ugly at all, it's really nice (and functionally well-designed too IMO).
neves 5y ago
How long does it take to fully charge a depleted EV battery? And with a fast charger?
trenning 5y ago
Interesting piece. Definitely have to read it from a lens of a highly paid tech worker, nothing wrong with that either. Buying an electric vehicle right now if you aren't a highly paid engineer is a bit of a wedge I'd say though. We're only just approaching a cross roads of fuel/electric competition in vehicles. If you buy a car and expect to hold onto it for 5 or more years, slightly under the length of the avg new car loan, then you want to be really sure the one you pick is stable and the right choice. To me that removes most of the EV options available, regardless of how much I like their style (looking at you rivian). I'm excited to see what's available on the market in 5 years but right now it still feels early to buy a brand new EV if you aren't a high earner. A used leaf or bolt still looks like the best bet to dip into the EV market and drive something cheaper until full adoption and kinks are worked out by the big car companies. I have owned some electric vehicles, so not trying to be a hater of it, quite the opposite.
erictd 5y ago
I disagree with a few of OP's points - > Charging speed · Remember, this only matters if you do a significant amount of long-haul driving. But then it matters a lot. At this point, Tesla still has a lead, because there are more Superchargers and the cars (recent models at least) charge damn fast. I bought into a great charging network and got a pretty good car to use it with. I can't imagine... I don't understand!... buying an electric car not integrated with Tesla's supercharger network. Plus, I would hate being limited to 100kW charging, after having easy access to 150 and 250kW. > The Niche · IF you need to travel 500km (about 300 miles) on a regular basis, AND IF you really can’t handle that trip taking an extra hour, well then, suck it up, live in the past, get a vehicle that’s less reliable and more expensive to run and more damaging to life on Earth. Or gosh, get a Supercharger network and your choice of Tesla and add 0-15 minutes. > And I think their experiment in moving all the interaction to a tablet off to the driver’s side can be declared a failure. The age of cars trying to look like fighter jet cockpits with switches filling all available space is over. The tablet brings a superior navigation experience, really good music apps, great driving information display not hidden behind a (usually too low) steering wheel. Looks-wise the Tesla interior is delightfully spare. Don't take my tablet.
Handytinge 5y ago
> I think there are only two EVs that are uncontroversial design triumphs: The Jag and the Porsche Taycan. Allow me to contraverse. I find the Jag ugly and the Porsche obnoxious.

> Range - So, here’s the thing: Range doesn’t matter. No, really, it doesn’t. False. Of course range matters and making excuses for the limitations of BEVs lacks ambition. Claiming range doesn't matter simply fails to consider what it means when the entire fleet is electric. Over-building the fast charging infrastructure to support a national fleet of low range EVs is wasteful. Longer range means less time at fast chargers and more time slow charging over night. Slow charge infrastructure is much cheaper to build out. The Lucid Air gets 500 miles highway range: https://insideevs.com/reviews/562511/lucid-air-range-test-record/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/562511/lucid-air-range-test-re... Less expensive EVs should aspire to 400 miles range as a minimum.

zelos 5y ago
> Slow charge infrastructure is much cheaper to build out. Plus much cheaper to use and (presumably) less damaging to the battery.
michaelt 5y ago
> Slow charge infrastructure is much cheaper to build out. At a highway rest stop, why would a fast charger that can charge 1 car in 6 minutes be any more expensive than a bank of slow chargers that can charge 10 cars in 60 minutes?
- Arnt 5y ago
  While the peak usage is the same, they have other differences. The ten-charger setup will cause many fairly modest load changes on the electricity network, while the one-charger setup will cause a few giant changes. That may plausibly have some impact on the price of the infrastructure needed and what the power company will charge.
- mauricio 5y ago
  In order to charge 10x faster, you need to deliver 10x the current. That means all the wiring and electronics need to be upgraded to handle the huge increase without melting. Also, the rest stop won't just be installing a single fast charger, it would install more than one. So you can't really compare 10 slow chargers against a single fast one. That means the wiring service for the entire rest stop would likely need to be upgraded as well.
- rythie 5y ago
  A fast charger has AC-DC converter provide DC power to car, which is expensive. Slow chargers are AC, which are very cheap in comparison.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  In your scenario what you're describing are all DC fast chargers.
Timshel 5y ago
Because having a fleet of car with a range of 400miles to commute 50miles is not wasteful ? I like that at the moment the top comment is that people do not have the money to follow the autor ideal and you want even bigger battery pack which is I believe the most expensive part of the car ...
- clouddrover 5y ago
  There's that lack of ambition. Instead of making excuses for cars with compromises, you want better batteries: cheaper, safer, more energy dense, more power dense, faster charging, more recyclable, longer duty cycle. Batteries need improvement in all metrics.
1234letshaveatw 5y ago
Interesting argument (from a waste perspective). If 99% of all trips are 10-20 miles isn't over-building battery capacity more wasteful than building out charging stations with a much higher utilization? Cars would be more expensive, and, presumably heavier and do more damage to the roads. Charging infrastructure is relatively cheap compared to the millions of additional cells that would require mass quantities of non-renewable resources
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > Cars would be more expensive, and, presumably heavier and do more damage to the roads. Not with better batteries. Until there are better batteries, use swappable batteries. Or you could always go fuel cell. They do well for long range driving, even in the cold: https://electrek.co/2022/01/03/hyundai-nexo-sets-hydrogen-endurance-record-but-why/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/03/hyundai-nexo-sets-hydrogen-en...
dominicdoty 5y ago
This is taken out of context a bit. What's said is that range doesn't matter if you're not doing long hauls (which he defines as 150+ miles). I tend to agree with him, as the majority of drivers are rarely driving over 150 miles in a day. In that case any car with 200+ miles of range will easily meet day to day needs with no fast charging. I've personally found this to be true as I come up on 6 months of EV ownership. I've only needed to fast charge 1x, and that was due to me accidentally not plugging my car in all the way one night. He explained his viewpoint more thoroughly in a post linked just after your quoted line: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2021/09/01/How-Much-Range https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2021/09/01/How-Much-...
- bagacrap 5y ago
  "with no fast charging" --- this assumes you can charge 150mi overnight, which I cannot in the townhome I'm now renting.
  - dominicdoty 5y ago
    A fair point, but even then 150 is probably on the high end. I commute 60 miles a day and made it through the first ~2 months using only a level 1 home charger (standard wall outlet). My total charge trended down through the week, and then made up for it on the weekend. ~10 hours of level 1 charging gives me about 50-60 miles. Slightly limiting for my commute, but all in all, not impossible to work around.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > What's said is that range doesn't matter if you're not doing long hauls (which he defines as 150+ miles). Yes, he's only thinking about an individual driver. He's not thinking about the requirements across the entire fleet. There will always be plenty of people doing long hauls across the whole fleet.
markvdb 5y ago
There are a few counter arguments to that idea, many of those linked to battery weight. An efficient car with a 40-50 kWh battery could weigh at least 200-250kg less than a 85kWh one. This has a direct effect on: - energy consumption. Having to drag along 250kg is not free. - maintenance cycles. Tires, brakes and more need more frequent maintenance on a heavier car. - road maintenance (!) A simple 7.2 kW charger is more than enough to charge a 40-50 kWh battery overnight. That's plenty for a large majority of use cases. Proper charging infrastructure can help one along on the exceptional further trip. Also, don't underestimate the number of people that don't want or can't spend 5000€ on a car.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  Every point you've made is an argument for ICE vehicles over BEVs. ICE is the no-compromise option in your scenarios. The best BEV you could get under the terms you've set wouldn't be worth owning.
lazyjones 5y ago
> Longer range means less time at fast chargers and more time slow charging over night. Slow charge infrastructure is much cheaper to build out. Typical driving profiles already mean that you rarely need fast chargers. The bottleneck will be holiday seasons and similar, when suddenly the demand for fast charging will go up 100-fold or more. > Of course range matters and making excuses for the limitations of BEVs lacks ambition. High-end BEV already have similar range to comparable (on horsepower) ICE cars. They don't need much more.
dexterdog 5y ago
The amount of unnecessary battery that you are hauling around for 400+ range is crazy. If anybody is going to go long range they need to do it via a removable boost battery that you can leave at home for the 99% of your driving where you don't need it. I have a plugin that only gets 29 miles of battery and I go for months of time occasionally sipping at the tank before I need to fill up.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > If anybody is going to go long range they need to do it via a removable boost battery that you can leave at home for the 99% of your driving where you don't need it. Cars with swappable batteries enable you do up- and downsize the pack as needed. Nio does 70 kWh to 100 kWh packs with a 150 kWh option supposedly on the way this year: https://insideevs.com/news/537644/nio-4-million-battery-swaps/ https://insideevs.com/news/537644/nio-4-million-battery-swap... Other brands are introducing cars with swappable batteries as well: https://electrek.co/2022/01/22/geely-backed-maple-leaf-60s-leaked-ahead-of-feb-debut-with-60-sec-battery-swap/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/22/geely-backed-maple-leaf-60s-l... https://thedriven.io/2021/04/28/nsw-based-janus-electric-prepares-road-test-for-exchangeable-battery-for-big-rigs/ https://thedriven.io/2021/04/28/nsw-based-janus-electric-pre...

i_am_proteus 5y ago

The author seems to be myopically fixated on arguments aimed toward people who can afford a nice new car. For those of us with smaller budgets, but who still need a car because of lack of viable alternatives, there still isn't a choice.

edent 5y ago
I'm not sure where you are in the world, buy you can buy plenty of 2nd hand EVs. Looks like they start at around £6k. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postcode=w1a1aa&radius=1500&include-delivery-option=on&price-from=6000&fuel-type=Electric https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postc... But, you can lease a brand new low-end EV for around £200-£300 per month.
- mavhc 5y ago
  I bought a 3 year old Leaf 7 years ago for £6500, apart from tyres, spent £30 on new windscreen wipers, and last week £125 on a suspension thing. 1p/mile, £0 tax per year. And same year model is on sale for more than £6500 today
- i_am_proteus 5y ago
  Which person trusts the battery on a ten-year-old early-generation electric vehicle? What down payment is required before leasing a new electric vehicle for two or three hundred United Kingdom Quids? How much insurance must be carried for such a vehicle? I do not doubt that the electric vehicle is a fantastic choice for the financially secure person. But many are not so fortunate.
  - edent 5y ago
    The batteries seem to be fine - they're doing better than most people expected. But the dashboard will give you the battery's predicted range. You might as well ask how many people will buy a 10 year old ICE with a knackered gearbox! I paid £250 down, then £250 per month for my last EV. Insurance was roughly the same as an ICE. But that will depend on the driver and area as much as the vehicle. Are there sub £1,000 beaters in the EV market? No. You can buy an ancient petrol Clio - and then keep spending to keep it running. But I daresay it'll cost you more in petrol than you'd save in electricity.

xattt 5y ago

> I mean, what buying a gas car is like in 2022. It’s like holding onto your flip phone in 2012. It’s like trying to find your hotel in a strange city after a red-eye with a paper map. It’s like putting your retirement savings into coal-mining investments. This piece comes from a place of privilege. I bought a gas car out of the necessity of a growing family within the last year. Within my market, there are no options to buy a new electric without waiting for a very, very, very long time. Also, travelling out of province to buy is not an option given the pandemic and a small baby at home.

taneq 5y ago
Yeah, it is a bit "why don't you just buy a brand new luxury car every year?"
- rob74 5y ago
  Well, if he's so environmentally conscious I sure hope he doesn't buy a new electric car every year, and (to be fair) it doesn't sound like that from the article (the "What I'd buy" section starts with "Suppose a meteorite hits [his current car]"). But yeah, the fact that many people still can't afford an EV seems to have slipped his mind...
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    If a meteorite hit his current car, he could buy a luxury EV (or two) with the proceeds he got from selling his meteorite and collector car. I've only ever heard of one over such car, and it fetched a very high price for its 17-year-old owner.
lhball 5y ago
It’s a “luxury belief”[1] and it shows that some people either forgot or never really knew how the other half lives. 1: https://quillette.com/2019/11/16/thorstein-veblens-theory-of-the-leisure-class-a-status-update/ https://quillette.com/2019/11/16/thorstein-veblens-theory-of...
yohannparis 5y ago

tapoxi 5y ago

I leased my first EV this past summer, a VW id4, and had a 240v/30A charger installed at home. I live in the Boston metro area. It's really nice the majority of the time - I never need to go on a gas run, acceleration is _significantly_ better than any previous car I've had, there's much less maintenance involved. Range on longer trips is an issue, with us going to Maine for vacation or to see in-laws in Connecticut we needed to plan around chargers. I was really surprised by the amount of range lost in the winter, going from ~260 miles to ~200. I'm still very happy with the decision, but it feels like we're in early adopter territory for at least five more years.

mkoubaa 5y ago
Imo any new EV contract should come with rental car points for this sort of thing
loudmax 5y ago
I drive a 2019 Toyota Plug-in Prius. This past summer I was getting about 30 miles of electric range. This morning, it was down to 23 miles. In my case, running out of electric range isn't catastrophic, since it automatically switches to gas when the battery is out. The difference in acceleration performance between gas and electric modes is noticeable. After all, it's a Prius so I'm not winning any drag races, but in electric mode it is very responsive. I'm pretty happy about this car, I feel like I'm getting the best of both worlds. The majority of my driving is electric, without the range anxiety. If my daily commute were longer (mine is about 12 miles each way), that might tip the balance into driving full electric with a longer range or just falling back to gas entirely.
mikestew 5y ago
…but it feels like we're in early adopter territory for at least five more years. You’re probably right, but as an owner of one of the first Nissan Leafs to roll off the line (still have it), my spouse and I view the current market as a luxury of choices and any number of which could easily be our only car. Some of it is perspective: folks will comment on the need to find a charger on a road trip, but never mention that they haven’t had to go out of their way on the way home to find gas since…well, since they bought their EV. Some of it is legitimate, since chargers aren’t as common as gas stations. But c’mon, even a 200 mile range on a trip is more “minor inconvenience to find a charger on the map on the dashboard that will route me there” rather than “early adopter”, and that’s just once in a while.

sockpuppet69 5y ago

mdmglr 5y ago

Buying an electric car in 2022 is like buying the iPhone in 2007. I can also make comical platitudes. One thing that struck me while reading this is the author implies that he would consider the Taycan, a car that retails for > 100k USD, if it weren't for the lack of storage space. We are definately not in the same bracket so its hard to take this piece of writing seriously. I certainly cannot and will not consider spending that much on a car. Even the 70k USD asking for an i-pace is too much.

KaiserPro 5y ago
> author implies that he would consider the Taycan, a car that retails for > 100k USD Which is the same price as a tesla model x. However I get your main drift. I'm not pissing away 40-80k on a thing that will depreciate 3/4 of that value in 4 years. No matter how much the wife insists, buying a new car is a fool's errand.
- Handytinge 5y ago
  Looking at used Teslas for sale, almost all of them I can see ~ 3-6 years old in my country are only 10-20% cheaper than new. It seems currently they're depreciating 1/5 max in that 4 years.
  - KaiserPro 5y ago
    Currently all second hand cars in my country are not depreciating, this I suspect is because people are buying 30% less newer cars. (https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/uk-new-car-sales-29-below-pre-pandemic-level-2021-smmt-2022-01-06/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/uk-new-car-sales-29-b...) However Tesla are a special case, despite being single-handedly responsible for bringing down the reliability of the entire EV class, people still love them, and dont sell them (currently there are ~550 onsale in autotrader for the entire of the UK, compared to 440 renualt zoes)

stevespang 5y ago

FpUser 5y ago

>"IF you need to travel 500km (about 300 miles) on a regular basis, AND IF you really can’t handle that trip taking an extra hour, well then, suck it up, live in the past, get a vehicle that’s less reliable and more expensive to run and more damaging to life on Earth" I did not need to read past that. It is truly insulting and inconsiderate. The article is written by a jerk.

1970-01-01 5y ago
The jerk-author ain't wrong. People buy ICE for this very problem.
- bagacrap 5y ago
  he's wrong in the sense that there are other reasons not to buy electric: * price * options & availability * (for long trips) lack of charging infrastructure along desired route * lack of charging infrastructure at home also kind of a laugh to think that a person who buys a $70k luxury vehicle is saving life on Earth. I guarantee his carbon footprint could be smaller. Who's to judge what's small enough?
  - 1970-01-01 5y ago
    I own an $80k EV and have a quantifiable negative carbon footprint. IMHO negative is small enough for me.
- FpUser 5y ago
  Being/not being wrong and being a jerk are two different things. As for blanket reason. I have a rich friend. He has Tesla. He does not give a flying fuck about carbon footprint. The only reason he bought is is that famous acceleration.

martythemaniak 5y ago

People shouldn't be upset at any EV owner's perceived elitist tone. The EV transition will last about 10 years and we're all aware that while the future is already here, it's very unevenly distributed. You can assume that everyone understands this, because otherwise we would all have to start every single post/tweet/blog with a long disclaimer/trigger warning about how we're keenly aware of our privilege, a blurb about inequality, a blurb about Wright's Law, etc etc. It'll get very repetitive and obnoxious very quickly. I've had my EV for close to four years now and I "sell" EVs to basically everyone I meet as a hobby. Plenty of people are easy to convince. Yes, most people can't afford them, or the limited options available (until 2021, basically just Tesla) doesn't quite fit their preferences. This is easy, as prices will drop below ICEVs within a few years and all major OEMs will offer EVs. Convincing them isn't about getting them to buy an EV right now, but just to decide that it's their next car. I test drove a Model S in 2013 and was absolutely sold on EVs as the future, even though I didn't purchase a Model 3 until 5 years after that. The tough parts are the people with emotional attachments to fossil fuels. The smells, the noises, the vibrations are all taken as positives. And of course, there is frequently just a lot of plain old FUD about battery fires, being stranded, etc. There's also a lot of machismo and fantastical claims about needing to drive 12hrs in the tundra without stopping, etc. Luckily they're a minority, so simple price moves will get 80% of people to switch.

jjulius 5y ago
Preface: EV leasee, believe the future is electric. >The EV transition will last about 10 years... >I test drove a Model S in 2013... And the Model S started selling in 2012 - nine years ago. Would you care to more specifically explain what such a 10-year timeline looks like to you? When does such a timeline even start? Should we include in the "transition" the period where hybrid vehicles were all the rage? >This is easy, as prices will drop below ICEVs within a few years... I'd be very curious to see how long "a few years" is to you, and what data you have that bolsters this point.
- martythemaniak 5y ago
  I think the 10 year timeline is for new car sales to go from basically nothing to basically everything, but when it occurs depends on the place. In Norway it is roughly 2013-2023. In Germany it might be something like 2018-2018, whereas in North America it's gonna be something like 2020-2030. I don't think we have to worry about old cars, once new car sales are almost entirely EV, then old ICEVs will die a natural death. I think the biggest mistake people make is that they think the transition will be linear, but it's gonna be an exponential S-curve. For a long time it'll look like nothing is happening, then a lot will happen "all of a sudden", but of course, the growth rates will have been the same all the time. Sales roughly double every 3 years, driven by y/y decreases in battery prices. Hard to answer overall because everything depends on local values, gas prices and subsidies, but I think in North America majority new cars will be EVs 2025-2027.

ptomato 5y ago

> I think there are only two EVs that are uncontroversial design triumphs: The Jag and the Porsche Taycan. The Taycan is not the ugliest car ever, but claiming the I-Pace looks good is... certainly a bold stance.

kingcharles 5y ago
Looks are all subjective. I've always loved the I-Pace myself. Most electric cars are ugly, as the author says. Including, IMO, Teslas. Audi's new e-Tron GT is pretty nice, though.

LightG 5y ago

Hyundai ioniq 5 is the best all around package on offer at the moment (imo). Looks bad@ss too.

georgeoliver 5y ago
Was a passenger in one this past weekend, and it's subjective of course but I don't think it's ugly at all, it's really nice (and functionally well-designed too IMO).

neves 5y ago

How long does it take to fully charge a depleted EV battery? And with a fast charger?

trenning 5y ago

Interesting piece. Definitely have to read it from a lens of a highly paid tech worker, nothing wrong with that either. Buying an electric vehicle right now if you aren't a highly paid engineer is a bit of a wedge I'd say though. We're only just approaching a cross roads of fuel/electric competition in vehicles. If you buy a car and expect to hold onto it for 5 or more years, slightly under the length of the avg new car loan, then you want to be really sure the one you pick is stable and the right choice. To me that removes most of the EV options available, regardless of how much I like their style (looking at you rivian). I'm excited to see what's available on the market in 5 years but right now it still feels early to buy a brand new EV if you aren't a high earner. A used leaf or bolt still looks like the best bet to dip into the EV market and drive something cheaper until full adoption and kinks are worked out by the big car companies. I have owned some electric vehicles, so not trying to be a hater of it, quite the opposite.

erictd 5y ago

I disagree with a few of OP's points - > Charging speed · Remember, this only matters if you do a significant amount of long-haul driving. But then it matters a lot. At this point, Tesla still has a lead, because there are more Superchargers and the cars (recent models at least) charge damn fast. I bought into a great charging network and got a pretty good car to use it with. I can't imagine... I don't understand!... buying an electric car not integrated with Tesla's supercharger network. Plus, I would hate being limited to 100kW charging, after having easy access to 150 and 250kW. > The Niche · IF you need to travel 500km (about 300 miles) on a regular basis, AND IF you really can’t handle that trip taking an extra hour, well then, suck it up, live in the past, get a vehicle that’s less reliable and more expensive to run and more damaging to life on Earth. Or gosh, get a Supercharger network and your choice of Tesla and add 0-15 minutes. > And I think their experiment in moving all the interaction to a tablet off to the driver’s side can be declared a failure. The age of cars trying to look like fighter jet cockpits with switches filling all available space is over. The tablet brings a superior navigation experience, really good music apps, great driving information display not hidden behind a (usually too low) steering wheel. Looks-wise the Tesla interior is delightfully spare. Don't take my tablet.

Handytinge 5y ago

> I think there are only two EVs that are uncontroversial design triumphs: The Jag and the Porsche Taycan. Allow me to contraverse. I find the Jag ugly and the Porsche obnoxious.