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> But stuff like that in the US is in the tenfold to hundredfold when compared to similar episodes in any other country that is not bloody poor or a war zone.

> But stuff like that in the US is in the tenfold to hundredfold when compared to similar episodes in any other country that is not bloody poor or a war zone. I think the US has an unhealthy obsession with guns that I haven't noticed with other countries. This encourages US residents to acquire/carry guns to make a political point about the second amendment or their rights as opposed to any practical need, leading to way more guns out there than actually necessary for hunting/self-defense/sport. In other countries you mention, I'm pretty sure guns are something people acquire when they have a legitimate need for them (even if just recreational shooting) but otherwise are a fairly trivial item with no "culture" nor politics associated with it - people don't obtain/carry them just to prove a point about the second amendment or their rights.

01acheru 5y ago
Thanks for bringing good arguments to the discussion. > I think the US has an unhealthy obsession with guns that I haven't noticed with other countries Where do you think this obsession comes from? > but otherwise are a fairly trivial item with no "culture" nor politics associated with it Why would that reduce their risk? Flipping the question: why would this gun culture bring to more guns being actually fired? (for recklessness, violence, whatever stupid reason)
- jahnu 5y ago
  Different societies have different thresholds and criteria for what problems can be solved with violence or the threat of violence. We can see this manifest in the use of violence by the state authorities. E.g. if state applies capital punishment to certain crimes then this reinforces the idea that violence is a solution to problems. Whether the state holds this position because the society does or vice versa or some mixture of the two I'm not sure.
  - 01acheru 5y ago
    So in your opinion the US are a more violent society than most around the developed world?
    - jahnu 5y ago
      For gun violence, murder, and rape, yes I think it's pretty clear cut for the US as a whole. I would hazard a guess that there are large parts of the US where violence is more comparable to, say, the average Canadian levels.
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  > Where do you think this obsession comes from? American action movies? Call of Duty? My money would be on a lack of social cohesion, where people tend to not care much about their neighbors or society as a whole. Guns aren't themselves the problem, they just highlight the disease at the core of american culture. Other countries have more history and culture and religion that bind them together. Being a young country of immigrants the US doesn't have those qualities. If you don't feel part of the wider culture then you don't care about those people.
  - 01acheru 5y ago
    > lack of social cohesion, where people tend to not care much about their neighbors or society as a whole Thanks, that's a really good point. Which factors in your opinion influence this lack of social cohesion more? Social inequalities, racial, religious, educational?
    - CodeGlitch 5y ago
      Thanks. I think here in the West we have turned our backs on religion, and are now seeing the fallout from that. Religion not only defines a culture's moral code, but produces all sorts of additional glue binding people together. I'm am atheist but appreciate the benefits of Christianity for example, as that's what I grew up with and have continued with Christian traditions. Celebrating Christmas is an obvious example here. I'm not sure what the answer for the US is? Forcing everyone to church? As a kid I hated Sunday mass. As an adult I'm glad i went through that.
      - 01acheru 5y ago
        I found this: > The United States has a religious makeup that’s broadly similar to that of many Western European countries. Most people on both sides of the Atlantic say they are Christian, for example. At the same time, substantial shares in the U.S. and Europe say they are religiously unaffiliated: Roughly a quarter of the American adult population identify as “nones” (23%), similar to the shares in Germany (24%), the United Kingdom (23%) and other Western European countries. > At that point, however, the similarities end: U.S. adults – both Christian and unaffiliated – are considerably more religious than their European counterparts by a variety of other measures, according to an analysis of data from Pew Research Center’s 2014 U.S. Religious Landscape Study in the U.S. and a 2017 survey of Western Europeans. For instance, about two-thirds of U.S. Christians pray daily (68%), compared with a median of just 18% of Christians across 15 surveyed countries in Europe, including 6% in Britain, 9% in Germany, 12% in Denmark and 38% in the Netherlands. Also to my perception US citizens always seemed much more religious than Europens.
- irrational 5y ago
  > Where do you think this obsession comes from? The following is anecdotal. My grandparents grew up in the rural west with guns because they needed them for legitimate protection from animals. They were never gun obsessed. Their children grew up naturally learning how to shoot guns, but none of them are gun obsessed except for my father. What is the difference between my father and his siblings? He is a doctor and the military paid for his medical school. His obsession with guns was a direct result of his service in the military. My cousins, whose parents did not serve in the military, are not gun obsessed. Most of my siblings are. The USA has an obscenely huge military. I think our gun obsession culture is a direct result of so many people and their parents having served in the military. For some reason, the USA military engenders more of a gun obsession/culture than other countries militaries. Maybe it is the combination of the 2nd amendment and military service.
  - sorokod 5y ago
    A counter point, I grew up in a country where military service is compulsory. From my experience, having to carry an assult rifle night and day for months is very effective in curing childish notions about guns .
    - 01acheru 5y ago
      I don't think the point is about how many people actually perform military duty, but about how the US military culture works in practice. Switzerland for example has a heavily compulsory military duty but IMHO a less violent, less patriotic, less indoctrinated and less glorified military culture.
      - sorokod 5y ago
        It is a culture thing, just not millitary culture.
        01acheru 5y ago
        Even if gun obsession is a cultural thing, how that translates to gun violence? And to gun recklessness?
- jopython 5y ago
  The 'obsession' comes from the 2nd amendment which has no equal in other countries.
- caconym_ 5y ago
  > Where do you think this obsession comes from? "2A issues" have been, AFAIK, a hot political issue for at least a few decades. The right is generally "pro-gun"; we may also ascribe to the right (not to exclude the left from the same, but it seems less relevant here) a general enthusiasm for openly contrarian signaling and behavior. Another good example is "rolling coal"—maybe I just don't understand the appeal, but to me it seems like a totally pointless and destructive exercise that can be traced directly back to their hatred of environmentalist policy. The popularity of hybrid cars and cyclists as targets for "coal rolling" supports this. I'd say their "obsession" with guns is coming from a similar place. To a lot of these people, guns are much more political and social symbols than they are tools. The same urges that make them drive around in lifted trucks covered in Trump flags compel them not just to buy and shoot guns, but also to decorate them with political slogans and symbology, to conspicuously and (often) trollishly display them, to argue vehemently against any policy that can possibly be classified as "gun control", and so on.
  - 01acheru 5y ago
    Thanks! Even if gun obsession is a cultural thing, how that translates to gun violence? And to gun recklessness?
    - caconym_ 5y ago
      > gun violence In some cases (e.g. the recent murder of Ahmaud Arbery), I think it comes directly from attitudes ingrained in right-wing gun culture and associated spheres. The murderers had been socialized to believe they were completely in the right to pursue, detain, and ultimately murder a man on no basis beyond their own (frankly) unhinged, malignant racism. In other cases, I think it is less directly political and more a result of certain socioeconomic issues, organized crime paradigms, and the general availability of guns. > gun recklessness This is speculation, but I think subcultures that glorify guns and (sometimes hypothetical) gun violence are less likely to treat guns with the appropriate care and respect. It's not a sober mindset, and often these people seem to have a very clear idea of who they imagine they might shoot with their guns (yes, people, not animals) and very little empathy for them. Even putting aside how toxic that mindset is by itself, the fact that your gun may just as easily kill you, a loved one, or an innocent bystander is a very sober fact, and not very compatible with said mindset. For instance, I don't think the kind of person who e.g. has the words "You're Fucked" milled on the inside of his AR-15's ejection cover^[1] is particularly concerned with minimizing violent outcomes. Please note that I'm not saying all right-wing gun owners are like this. There are many, even those whose politics I may vehemently disagree with, who are perfectly responsible and sober gun owners. ^[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver
- drewcoo 5y ago
  >> but otherwise are a fairly trivial item with no "culture" nor politics associated with it >Why would that reduce their risk? Flipping the question: why would this gun culture bring to more guns being actually fired? (for recklessness, violence, whatever stupid reason) Availability, if nothing else. See also: Tide Pods
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > Where do you think this obsession comes from? I responded to another comment but I feel it would be relevant here too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30050462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30050462
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  > Where do you think this obsession comes from? The US is a society founded by colonists who needed guns to protect themselves against the people they were enslaving and the people whose land they were stealing.
mburee 5y ago
For Switzerland I also imagine a lot of assault rifles just lying around from mandatory service
- 01acheru 5y ago
  So how comes that "lots of assault rifles lying around" mean nothing in Switzerland but mean mass shootings and random firing in the backyard in the US?
  - EEBio 5y ago
    I would assume the Swiss have received the necessary firing weapon training (which surely comes with a lot of safety measures drilling) which could have an impact. I would also assume that the Swiss don't just allow anyone to join the military and thereby obtain an assault rifle, but that there is some psychological screening, that would prevent an unstable person from joining the military. Meanwhile, in the US such a person just walks up to the gun shop and buys a firing weapon.
  - benhurmarcel 5y ago
    Because in Switzerland people have guns to defend the state from invaders. In the US people have guns to defend themselves (from the state or other people). Also in Switzerland people store their military service gun but they don’t have bullets.
- giantg2 5y ago
  I believe they don't get to keep the rifle personally anymore. I would doubt there are many assault rifle nor semi-auto versions in the civilian population.
giantg2 5y ago
I agree they have been politicized. I wonder if that has anything to do with the political fight over gun regulations that seems to be unique to the US, or at least have a unique level of divisiveness. It seemed that my grandparents generation viewed guns as just a normal tool, but also didn't have as much active legislation, news coverage, etc. It seems, in my view, it's mostly the increasing disconnect between the urban and rural areas.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  There’s definitely a fight over gun rights in the US more than other countries. It’s a positive feedback loop: gun-related violence prompts for more restrictions which in turn prompts people to acquire (and carry) guns in defiance despite not having other, more practical (self-defense, recreational shooting, hunting, etc) to do so and in turn cause more gun violence, intentionally (escalating confrontations to deadly shootouts that would otherwise be resolved without deadly force) or accidents like this one seems to be. It doesn’t help that guns are also a political weapon - whenever a party wants to introduce gun restrictions, the other can use this as an advantage to secure votes (supported by pro-gun organisations such as the NRA). This of course isn’t limited to guns per-se but guns happen to be there and have a cult-like following often defying rationality - a perfect tool for politicians to take advantage of. I’m not sure what a good solution to this would be. In my mind, the right to bear arms is already meaningless - my understanding is the the original purpose of the second amendment was to allow people to be armed to defend themselves against an abusive government - as using these arms to defend yourself against abusive law enforcement is already outlawed and can only result in life imprisonment at best and death (as in by deadly force used by police) at worst. In this case (assuming my understanding of 2A is correct) I believe a solution might be to forcefully restrict gun ownership. There’s definitely going to be turmoil and collateral damage (I believe guns can be owned and recreationally enjoyed responsibly without harming anyone and it would be a shame to let that go) but the advantages of having less guns around might pay off in the end.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Theoretically, if the government became abusive enough, factions of law enforcement and military would take sides. Not that I see a civil war as being likely, although some experts see signs pointing to the possibility. It's certainly an interesting topic to research - a 1st world government abusive enough to cause the people to fight, and would they actually fight or would it be resolved through succession etc. https://www.businessinsider.com/us-close-to-violent-conflict-book-how-civil-wars-start-2022-1?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/us-close-to-violent-conflict...

01acheru 5y ago

Thanks for bringing good arguments to the discussion. > I think the US has an unhealthy obsession with guns that I haven't noticed with other countries Where do you think this obsession comes from? > but otherwise are a fairly trivial item with no "culture" nor politics associated with it Why would that reduce their risk? Flipping the question: why would this gun culture bring to more guns being actually fired? (for recklessness, violence, whatever stupid reason)

jahnu 5y ago
Different societies have different thresholds and criteria for what problems can be solved with violence or the threat of violence. We can see this manifest in the use of violence by the state authorities. E.g. if state applies capital punishment to certain crimes then this reinforces the idea that violence is a solution to problems. Whether the state holds this position because the society does or vice versa or some mixture of the two I'm not sure.
- 01acheru 5y ago
  So in your opinion the US are a more violent society than most around the developed world?
  - jahnu 5y ago
    For gun violence, murder, and rape, yes I think it's pretty clear cut for the US as a whole. I would hazard a guess that there are large parts of the US where violence is more comparable to, say, the average Canadian levels.
CodeGlitch 5y ago
> Where do you think this obsession comes from? American action movies? Call of Duty? My money would be on a lack of social cohesion, where people tend to not care much about their neighbors or society as a whole. Guns aren't themselves the problem, they just highlight the disease at the core of american culture. Other countries have more history and culture and religion that bind them together. Being a young country of immigrants the US doesn't have those qualities. If you don't feel part of the wider culture then you don't care about those people.
- 01acheru 5y ago
  > lack of social cohesion, where people tend to not care much about their neighbors or society as a whole Thanks, that's a really good point. Which factors in your opinion influence this lack of social cohesion more? Social inequalities, racial, religious, educational?
  - CodeGlitch 5y ago
    Thanks. I think here in the West we have turned our backs on religion, and are now seeing the fallout from that. Religion not only defines a culture's moral code, but produces all sorts of additional glue binding people together. I'm am atheist but appreciate the benefits of Christianity for example, as that's what I grew up with and have continued with Christian traditions. Celebrating Christmas is an obvious example here. I'm not sure what the answer for the US is? Forcing everyone to church? As a kid I hated Sunday mass. As an adult I'm glad i went through that.
    - 01acheru 5y ago
      I found this: > The United States has a religious makeup that’s broadly similar to that of many Western European countries. Most people on both sides of the Atlantic say they are Christian, for example. At the same time, substantial shares in the U.S. and Europe say they are religiously unaffiliated: Roughly a quarter of the American adult population identify as “nones” (23%), similar to the shares in Germany (24%), the United Kingdom (23%) and other Western European countries. > At that point, however, the similarities end: U.S. adults – both Christian and unaffiliated – are considerably more religious than their European counterparts by a variety of other measures, according to an analysis of data from Pew Research Center’s 2014 U.S. Religious Landscape Study in the U.S. and a 2017 survey of Western Europeans. For instance, about two-thirds of U.S. Christians pray daily (68%), compared with a median of just 18% of Christians across 15 surveyed countries in Europe, including 6% in Britain, 9% in Germany, 12% in Denmark and 38% in the Netherlands. Also to my perception US citizens always seemed much more religious than Europens.
irrational 5y ago
> Where do you think this obsession comes from? The following is anecdotal. My grandparents grew up in the rural west with guns because they needed them for legitimate protection from animals. They were never gun obsessed. Their children grew up naturally learning how to shoot guns, but none of them are gun obsessed except for my father. What is the difference between my father and his siblings? He is a doctor and the military paid for his medical school. His obsession with guns was a direct result of his service in the military. My cousins, whose parents did not serve in the military, are not gun obsessed. Most of my siblings are. The USA has an obscenely huge military. I think our gun obsession culture is a direct result of so many people and their parents having served in the military. For some reason, the USA military engenders more of a gun obsession/culture than other countries militaries. Maybe it is the combination of the 2nd amendment and military service.
- sorokod 5y ago
  A counter point, I grew up in a country where military service is compulsory. From my experience, having to carry an assult rifle night and day for months is very effective in curing childish notions about guns .
  - 01acheru 5y ago
    I don't think the point is about how many people actually perform military duty, but about how the US military culture works in practice. Switzerland for example has a heavily compulsory military duty but IMHO a less violent, less patriotic, less indoctrinated and less glorified military culture.
    - sorokod 5y ago
      It is a culture thing, just not millitary culture.
      - 01acheru 5y ago
        Even if gun obsession is a cultural thing, how that translates to gun violence? And to gun recklessness?
jopython 5y ago
The 'obsession' comes from the 2nd amendment which has no equal in other countries.
caconym_ 5y ago
> Where do you think this obsession comes from? "2A issues" have been, AFAIK, a hot political issue for at least a few decades. The right is generally "pro-gun"; we may also ascribe to the right (not to exclude the left from the same, but it seems less relevant here) a general enthusiasm for openly contrarian signaling and behavior. Another good example is "rolling coal"—maybe I just don't understand the appeal, but to me it seems like a totally pointless and destructive exercise that can be traced directly back to their hatred of environmentalist policy. The popularity of hybrid cars and cyclists as targets for "coal rolling" supports this. I'd say their "obsession" with guns is coming from a similar place. To a lot of these people, guns are much more political and social symbols than they are tools. The same urges that make them drive around in lifted trucks covered in Trump flags compel them not just to buy and shoot guns, but also to decorate them with political slogans and symbology, to conspicuously and (often) trollishly display them, to argue vehemently against any policy that can possibly be classified as "gun control", and so on.
- 01acheru 5y ago
  Thanks! Even if gun obsession is a cultural thing, how that translates to gun violence? And to gun recklessness?
  - caconym_ 5y ago
    > gun violence In some cases (e.g. the recent murder of Ahmaud Arbery), I think it comes directly from attitudes ingrained in right-wing gun culture and associated spheres. The murderers had been socialized to believe they were completely in the right to pursue, detain, and ultimately murder a man on no basis beyond their own (frankly) unhinged, malignant racism. In other cases, I think it is less directly political and more a result of certain socioeconomic issues, organized crime paradigms, and the general availability of guns. > gun recklessness This is speculation, but I think subcultures that glorify guns and (sometimes hypothetical) gun violence are less likely to treat guns with the appropriate care and respect. It's not a sober mindset, and often these people seem to have a very clear idea of who they imagine they might shoot with their guns (yes, people, not animals) and very little empathy for them. Even putting aside how toxic that mindset is by itself, the fact that your gun may just as easily kill you, a loved one, or an innocent bystander is a very sober fact, and not very compatible with said mindset. For instance, I don't think the kind of person who e.g. has the words "You're Fucked" milled on the inside of his AR-15's ejection cover^[1] is particularly concerned with minimizing violent outcomes. Please note that I'm not saying all right-wing gun owners are like this. There are many, even those whose politics I may vehemently disagree with, who are perfectly responsible and sober gun owners. ^[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver
drewcoo 5y ago
>> but otherwise are a fairly trivial item with no "culture" nor politics associated with it >Why would that reduce their risk? Flipping the question: why would this gun culture bring to more guns being actually fired? (for recklessness, violence, whatever stupid reason) Availability, if nothing else. See also: Tide Pods
Nextgrid 5y ago
> Where do you think this obsession comes from? I responded to another comment but I feel it would be relevant here too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30050462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30050462
jrochkind1 5y ago
> Where do you think this obsession comes from? The US is a society founded by colonists who needed guns to protect themselves against the people they were enslaving and the people whose land they were stealing.

mburee 5y ago

For Switzerland I also imagine a lot of assault rifles just lying around from mandatory service

01acheru 5y ago
So how comes that "lots of assault rifles lying around" mean nothing in Switzerland but mean mass shootings and random firing in the backyard in the US?
- EEBio 5y ago
  I would assume the Swiss have received the necessary firing weapon training (which surely comes with a lot of safety measures drilling) which could have an impact. I would also assume that the Swiss don't just allow anyone to join the military and thereby obtain an assault rifle, but that there is some psychological screening, that would prevent an unstable person from joining the military. Meanwhile, in the US such a person just walks up to the gun shop and buys a firing weapon.
- benhurmarcel 5y ago
  Because in Switzerland people have guns to defend the state from invaders. In the US people have guns to defend themselves (from the state or other people). Also in Switzerland people store their military service gun but they don’t have bullets.
giantg2 5y ago
I believe they don't get to keep the rifle personally anymore. I would doubt there are many assault rifle nor semi-auto versions in the civilian population.

giantg2 5y ago

I agree they have been politicized. I wonder if that has anything to do with the political fight over gun regulations that seems to be unique to the US, or at least have a unique level of divisiveness. It seemed that my grandparents generation viewed guns as just a normal tool, but also didn't have as much active legislation, news coverage, etc. It seems, in my view, it's mostly the increasing disconnect between the urban and rural areas.

Nextgrid 5y ago
There’s definitely a fight over gun rights in the US more than other countries. It’s a positive feedback loop: gun-related violence prompts for more restrictions which in turn prompts people to acquire (and carry) guns in defiance despite not having other, more practical (self-defense, recreational shooting, hunting, etc) to do so and in turn cause more gun violence, intentionally (escalating confrontations to deadly shootouts that would otherwise be resolved without deadly force) or accidents like this one seems to be. It doesn’t help that guns are also a political weapon - whenever a party wants to introduce gun restrictions, the other can use this as an advantage to secure votes (supported by pro-gun organisations such as the NRA). This of course isn’t limited to guns per-se but guns happen to be there and have a cult-like following often defying rationality - a perfect tool for politicians to take advantage of. I’m not sure what a good solution to this would be. In my mind, the right to bear arms is already meaningless - my understanding is the the original purpose of the second amendment was to allow people to be armed to defend themselves against an abusive government - as using these arms to defend yourself against abusive law enforcement is already outlawed and can only result in life imprisonment at best and death (as in by deadly force used by police) at worst. In this case (assuming my understanding of 2A is correct) I believe a solution might be to forcefully restrict gun ownership. There’s definitely going to be turmoil and collateral damage (I believe guns can be owned and recreationally enjoyed responsibly without harming anyone and it would be a shame to let that go) but the advantages of having less guns around might pay off in the end.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Theoretically, if the government became abusive enough, factions of law enforcement and military would take sides. Not that I see a civil war as being likely, although some experts see signs pointing to the possibility. It's certainly an interesting topic to research - a 1st world government abusive enough to cause the people to fight, and would they actually fight or would it be resolved through succession etc. https://www.businessinsider.com/us-close-to-violent-conflict-book-how-civil-wars-start-2022-1?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/us-close-to-violent-conflict...