6 ms·

What about project loom? Will that not solve this case providing you start the server with a virtual thread pool? I guess thats what he was getting at however,

What about project loom? Will that not solve this case providing you start the server with a virtual thread pool? I guess thats what he was getting at however, not having to do that.

tomohawk 5y ago
Having used both languages for many years, it was unexpectedly irritating to pick up Java again after doing golang for a few years. So much unneeded complexity to do simple things.
- azth 5y ago
  What are some examples of unneeded complexity?
  - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
    All of it? For a specific example, try doing any functional programming in Java and compare it to pretty much any other language.
    - 41b696ef1113 5y ago
      I am far from a Java guy, but that seems like a poor example. Functional programming is not in the wheelhouse of Java. In the same way, it would be unfair to criticize Haskell for its object-oriented style.
    - aphexairlines 5y ago
      Java's not helpful for FP, but that's an odd example to bring up in a discussion about Go, which is also statement-oriented.
    - azth 5y ago
      Incidentally, golang is much worse for FP.
    - kaba0 5y ago
      It really is not that bad, and it is at least possible, both to incorporate it partly (stream api, immutable objects, especially with records) or go full-on with vavr.
  - doctor_eval 5y ago
    While not strictly the language itself, I find the Java standard library API to be unnecessarily verbose, with often obtuse defaults. Go’s library is sometimes overly terse, but after having experienced both in production, I much prefer Go’s style. An example is one of the date parsing functions (I can’t remember details now) which will happily accept an invalid date string (eg 2021-02-35) and silently convert it to a valid date (2021-03-07) despite declaring a parsing Exception. You see, you only get the exception if you call setLenient(false) or if the date string can’t be coerced. For the life of me, I cannot think of a use case for this behaviour, and it certainly violates the principle of least surprise.
    - blibble 5y ago
      the replacement for SimpleDateFormat/Calendar came with Java 8 (released in 2014)
      - doctor_eval 5y ago
        Sure, but it is an example of the kind of crappy APIs that littered Java for a long time.
        hbogert 5y ago
        Crappy apis is not beholden to java. Have you looked at go's timer API? Try to re-use one without inadvertently causing a data race, or get wrong behaviour.
        vips7L 5y ago
        Or any of go’s file api’s… https://fasterthanli.me/articles/i-want-off-mr-golangs-wild-ride https://fasterthanli.me/articles/i-want-off-mr-golangs-wild-...
    - eknkc 5y ago
      On the other hand, Go’s time format and parse logic is the biggest pile of shit I’ve ever seen in an API.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - grey-area 5y ago
    Inheritance.
    - azth 5y ago
      Inheritance does have its place. I've seen verbose and error prone workarounds in golang due to its lack of inheritance.
      - grey-area 5y ago
        Even the author of Java, James Gosling, disagrees with you. https://www.infoworld.com/article/2073649/why-extends-is-evil.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/2073649/why-extends-is-evi... As to workarounds for inheritance in Go, that sounds like trying to write in another language but in Go, which is of course not advisable in any language.
        azth 5y ago
        > Even the author of Java, James Gosling, disagrees with you. From the article: > Interface inheritance (the implements relationship) is preferable. You should avoid implementation inheritance whenever possible. Key words: preferable, and whenever possible. It's sometimes preferable to have inheritance and not possible to leave it out without unneeded extra complexity. Furthermore, nowadays interfaces in Java (as well as Kotlin, Scala, C# - all of which are much more expressive and have superior modeling capability than golang) can have default implementations, which increases their application even more and reduces the need for explicit inheritance. Not so in golang since interfaces cannot have default implementations there. > As to workarounds for inheritance in Go, that sounds like trying to write in another language but in Go, which is of course not advisable in any language. Not quite, it's just where having inheritance would have simplified the design, and improved readability.
        grey-area 5y ago
        He quite clearly states in the article he would ‘leave out classes’ (i.e. implementation inheritance). You didn’t quote the clearest statement in the article, just preceding your excerpt!? Again on interfaces, sometimes less is more. Many people prefer the inverted interfaces of go, declared at point of use. It’s fine to prefer the opposite, but these are deliberate choices, not mistakes or failures. Re inheritance simplifying a design, it does the opposite in my experience, unless by simplify you mean hide program flow and state.
closeparen 5y ago
Loom is an awesome research project that might begin to be relevant in the actual practice of production Java once it is 1-2 LTS releases old.
- lostcolony 5y ago
  Yeah; really hard to guess at the effect a feature that hasn't been finalized, has been in progress for years, and has yet to land in a release in any form, will actually have in an environment that is as slow to roll out updates and adopt new features as enterprise Java dev tends to be. Optimistically we may be able to answer op's question sometime in 2024.

What about project loom? Will that not solve this case providing you start the server with a virtual thread pool? I guess thats what he was getting at however, not having to do that.

tomohawk 5y ago

Having used both languages for many years, it was unexpectedly irritating to pick up Java again after doing golang for a few years. So much unneeded complexity to do simple things.

azth 5y ago
What are some examples of unneeded complexity?
- adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
  All of it? For a specific example, try doing any functional programming in Java and compare it to pretty much any other language.
  - 41b696ef1113 5y ago
    I am far from a Java guy, but that seems like a poor example. Functional programming is not in the wheelhouse of Java. In the same way, it would be unfair to criticize Haskell for its object-oriented style.
  - aphexairlines 5y ago
    Java's not helpful for FP, but that's an odd example to bring up in a discussion about Go, which is also statement-oriented.
  - azth 5y ago
    Incidentally, golang is much worse for FP.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    It really is not that bad, and it is at least possible, both to incorporate it partly (stream api, immutable objects, especially with records) or go full-on with vavr.
- doctor_eval 5y ago
  While not strictly the language itself, I find the Java standard library API to be unnecessarily verbose, with often obtuse defaults. Go’s library is sometimes overly terse, but after having experienced both in production, I much prefer Go’s style. An example is one of the date parsing functions (I can’t remember details now) which will happily accept an invalid date string (eg 2021-02-35) and silently convert it to a valid date (2021-03-07) despite declaring a parsing Exception. You see, you only get the exception if you call setLenient(false) or if the date string can’t be coerced. For the life of me, I cannot think of a use case for this behaviour, and it certainly violates the principle of least surprise.
  - blibble 5y ago
    the replacement for SimpleDateFormat/Calendar came with Java 8 (released in 2014)
    - doctor_eval 5y ago
      Sure, but it is an example of the kind of crappy APIs that littered Java for a long time.
      - hbogert 5y ago
        Crappy apis is not beholden to java. Have you looked at go's timer API? Try to re-use one without inadvertently causing a data race, or get wrong behaviour.
        vips7L 5y ago
        Or any of go’s file api’s… https://fasterthanli.me/articles/i-want-off-mr-golangs-wild-ride https://fasterthanli.me/articles/i-want-off-mr-golangs-wild-...
  - eknkc 5y ago
    On the other hand, Go’s time format and parse logic is the biggest pile of shit I’ve ever seen in an API.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- grey-area 5y ago
  Inheritance.
  - azth 5y ago
    Inheritance does have its place. I've seen verbose and error prone workarounds in golang due to its lack of inheritance.
    - grey-area 5y ago
      Even the author of Java, James Gosling, disagrees with you. https://www.infoworld.com/article/2073649/why-extends-is-evil.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/2073649/why-extends-is-evi... As to workarounds for inheritance in Go, that sounds like trying to write in another language but in Go, which is of course not advisable in any language.
      - azth 5y ago
        > Even the author of Java, James Gosling, disagrees with you. From the article: > Interface inheritance (the implements relationship) is preferable. You should avoid implementation inheritance whenever possible. Key words: preferable, and whenever possible. It's sometimes preferable to have inheritance and not possible to leave it out without unneeded extra complexity. Furthermore, nowadays interfaces in Java (as well as Kotlin, Scala, C# - all of which are much more expressive and have superior modeling capability than golang) can have default implementations, which increases their application even more and reduces the need for explicit inheritance. Not so in golang since interfaces cannot have default implementations there. > As to workarounds for inheritance in Go, that sounds like trying to write in another language but in Go, which is of course not advisable in any language. Not quite, it's just where having inheritance would have simplified the design, and improved readability.
        grey-area 5y ago
        He quite clearly states in the article he would ‘leave out classes’ (i.e. implementation inheritance). You didn’t quote the clearest statement in the article, just preceding your excerpt!? Again on interfaces, sometimes less is more. Many people prefer the inverted interfaces of go, declared at point of use. It’s fine to prefer the opposite, but these are deliberate choices, not mistakes or failures. Re inheritance simplifying a design, it does the opposite in my experience, unless by simplify you mean hide program flow and state.

closeparen 5y ago

Loom is an awesome research project that might begin to be relevant in the actual practice of production Java once it is 1-2 LTS releases old.

lostcolony 5y ago
Yeah; really hard to guess at the effect a feature that hasn't been finalized, has been in progress for years, and has yet to land in a release in any form, will actually have in an environment that is as slow to roll out updates and adopt new features as enterprise Java dev tends to be. Optimistically we may be able to answer op's question sometime in 2024.