7 ms·

> We should even respect flat earthers You lost me here. Basic literacy is a requirement for any fruitful debate

thethirdone 5y ago
Literacy does not imply believing in the round earth. Proving the earth is round to yourself without trusting outside influences is not a trivial pursuit.
- nitwit005 5y ago
  It's much harder to prove the Earth is flat. You run into really basic questions like, where is the edge, and why does no one find it? The theory only "holds together", with the assumption that everyone that works in any field even vaguely related to travel or communication is part of a conspiracy to hide the truth.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  These days all you need is someone with a phone and a stick in another country to perform Erastosthenes's experiment, right?
  - 0x7E3 5y ago
    Doesn't Erastosthenes's experiment merely allow you to calculate the size of the earth if you already accept that it is spherical? As I understand the experiment it does not (nor was it meant to) prove that the earth is a sphere.
    - mhh__ 5y ago
      Can flat earth explain the phenomenon in a parsimonious way?
      - 0x7E3 5y ago
        It's probably going to depend on what you mean by 'the phenomenon'. Do you mean that the sun casts shadows at different angles at the same time of day based on your location? Then yes, it absolutely does. In fact some believers in the flat earth theory use the experiment to establish the distance of the sun from the earth. If you mean something else, then I have no idea. I'm not a proponent of the flat earth theory, nor am I a mind reader. The experiment you proposed does not disprove the theory of a flat earth though, parsimoniously or otherwise. It sounds like you may have rejected the notion of a flat earth purely on faith after all?
        mhh__ 5y ago
        What distance do they find? My googling yields nothing. The results must also be consistent with the "circumference" of the earth. And yes, I reject all other evidence but this.
- 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
  The thing is that functionally speaking, the flat Earth movement isn't about proving whether the Earth is round or flat. It's about camaraderie in the quest for the hidden knowledge that "they" don't want you to have.
- pintxo 5y ago
  Take your next vacation at the sea, watch ships approaching the Harbour not just growing in size but also appearing to rise up from the water. Voilà
  - marginalia_nu 5y ago
    If you drop water onto a flat sheet of glass, surface tension will give its surface a lenticular shape.
  - 0x7E3 5y ago
    If that's all it takes to prove the earth is round it seems consistent to accept Fata Morgana as proof that gravity can fail once you get far enough away from the coast.
- PeterWhittaker 5y ago
  Fairly trivial: https://www.astro.princeton.edu/~dns/teachersguide/MeasECAct.html https://www.astro.princeton.edu/~dns/teachersguide/MeasECAct...
  - thethirdone 5y ago
    Unfortunately, atmospheric effects make it hard to completely remove doubt. This is definitely evidence that round earth is true, but not conclusive. It also requires you being able to derive those equations which is more than many people would be comfortable with. Especially if you think that "they" are lying to you, this could be a repeatable but cherry-picked piece of evidence that has a requires a more complicated explanation.
    - PeterWhittaker 5y ago
      The point is that there are many relatively straightforward ways to calculate curvature, from the sunrise/sunset technique to Erastothenes to watching sailing ships dip below the horizon and many more. The math may be beyond some people but the effects at play cannot be explained by a flat Earth. Part of the overall thread was along the lines of we should respect flat earthers, they improve rigour. It seems to me that the only sensible responses to that are the counter illustrations of just easily disproved a notion it is. Far more effort goes into supporting this ridiculousness than did into establishing rough shape and size.
version_five 5y ago
It's an interesting thought exercise to take some belief and ask yourself how you know, and asking until you get to some first principles or axioms or articles of faith. Part of that exercise could include coming up with plausible alternate explanations for what you perceive. Flat earth is just a ridiculous version of such a thought experiment. It's a good exercise to make sure your understanding of the world around you is based on some consistent logic and not faith. Those who reject the idea of the earth being flat just because "science tells us" have no intellectual high ground over devout flat earthers, if they exist
- jimsimmons 5y ago
  Exactly. Believing in narrated science is no different than believing the mumbo jumbo they throw at you in scifi movies. For me the halting problem seems like common sense / basic science but it’s not for everybody. That’s where we need to recognise that what’s obvious or basic to us isn’t so for others. And that is a good thing!
- NikolaeVarius 5y ago
  I actually love flat earthers BECAUSE it forces me to actually think about how "I Know" the world is round. I bet a majority of people who are anti-flat earthers could not actually "prove" the earth is round without immediately appealing to authority. I've talked to flat earthers, (both probably real and some probably trolling), and it can be a fun intellectual exercise to debate.
  - dools 5y ago
    You are allowed to appeal to authority. The "Argument from Authority" fallacy only applies when you appeal to a false authority, such as listening to your yoga instructor's opinions on vaccination. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
    - GolangProject 5y ago
      There are clear cases where "true authorities", however defined, have been wrong about all kinds of subjects, so the fallacy still applies. If you can only justify a belief by appealing to the assumed superior knowledge of experts and specialists, you cannot justify that belief as strongly as someone who can argue from first principles or a clear chain of evidence. The appeal to authority is not necessarily fallacious, but it's more likely to be so.
nimish 5y ago
It's a rather enlightening exercise to work out how and why the earth is curved purely from the perspective of a human able to see maybe a small patch. This is directly analogous to how general relativity models spacetime as being intrinsically curved, and you need to be able to do the same sort of thinking without being able to immerse the manifold in a higher dimensional space. So it's not exactly stupid to pretend to be naive. Also, why and by how much is the sun bigger than the moon? How far are they away from earth? We've known for thousands of years. It's not exactly obvious to derive this purely from geometry.
tarboreus 5y ago
You're saying you should only respect literate people. I say all people are fundamentally worthy of respect.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  Why? Why shouldn't respect be earned?
  - SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
    In my opinion respect should be granted by default, and rescinded if the person has earned that
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      Why?
      - SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
        Seems like the decent thing to do
- tremon 5y ago
  Are you saying there's nothing anybody can do to lose your respect?
YEwSdObPQT 5y ago
ravenstine 5y ago
To many, though perhaps not most, organized religion is seen as equally ridiculous as flat-earth theory. Are religious people illiterate or not worth debating or worthy of some basic respect?

Literacy does not imply believing in the round earth. Proving the earth is round to yourself without trusting outside influences is not a trivial pursuit.

nitwit005 5y ago
It's much harder to prove the Earth is flat. You run into really basic questions like, where is the edge, and why does no one find it? The theory only "holds together", with the assumption that everyone that works in any field even vaguely related to travel or communication is part of a conspiracy to hide the truth.
mhh__ 5y ago
These days all you need is someone with a phone and a stick in another country to perform Erastosthenes's experiment, right?
- 0x7E3 5y ago
  Doesn't Erastosthenes's experiment merely allow you to calculate the size of the earth if you already accept that it is spherical? As I understand the experiment it does not (nor was it meant to) prove that the earth is a sphere.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    Can flat earth explain the phenomenon in a parsimonious way?
    - 0x7E3 5y ago
      It's probably going to depend on what you mean by 'the phenomenon'. Do you mean that the sun casts shadows at different angles at the same time of day based on your location? Then yes, it absolutely does. In fact some believers in the flat earth theory use the experiment to establish the distance of the sun from the earth. If you mean something else, then I have no idea. I'm not a proponent of the flat earth theory, nor am I a mind reader. The experiment you proposed does not disprove the theory of a flat earth though, parsimoniously or otherwise. It sounds like you may have rejected the notion of a flat earth purely on faith after all?
      - mhh__ 5y ago
        What distance do they find? My googling yields nothing. The results must also be consistent with the "circumference" of the earth. And yes, I reject all other evidence but this.
0xcde4c3db 5y ago
The thing is that functionally speaking, the flat Earth movement isn't about proving whether the Earth is round or flat. It's about camaraderie in the quest for the hidden knowledge that "they" don't want you to have.
pintxo 5y ago
Take your next vacation at the sea, watch ships approaching the Harbour not just growing in size but also appearing to rise up from the water. Voilà
- marginalia_nu 5y ago
  If you drop water onto a flat sheet of glass, surface tension will give its surface a lenticular shape.
- 0x7E3 5y ago
  If that's all it takes to prove the earth is round it seems consistent to accept Fata Morgana as proof that gravity can fail once you get far enough away from the coast.
PeterWhittaker 5y ago
Fairly trivial: https://www.astro.princeton.edu/~dns/teachersguide/MeasECAct.html https://www.astro.princeton.edu/~dns/teachersguide/MeasECAct...
- thethirdone 5y ago
  Unfortunately, atmospheric effects make it hard to completely remove doubt. This is definitely evidence that round earth is true, but not conclusive. It also requires you being able to derive those equations which is more than many people would be comfortable with. Especially if you think that "they" are lying to you, this could be a repeatable but cherry-picked piece of evidence that has a requires a more complicated explanation.
  - PeterWhittaker 5y ago
    The point is that there are many relatively straightforward ways to calculate curvature, from the sunrise/sunset technique to Erastothenes to watching sailing ships dip below the horizon and many more. The math may be beyond some people but the effects at play cannot be explained by a flat Earth. Part of the overall thread was along the lines of we should respect flat earthers, they improve rigour. It seems to me that the only sensible responses to that are the counter illustrations of just easily disproved a notion it is. Far more effort goes into supporting this ridiculousness than did into establishing rough shape and size.

version_five 5y ago

It's an interesting thought exercise to take some belief and ask yourself how you know, and asking until you get to some first principles or axioms or articles of faith. Part of that exercise could include coming up with plausible alternate explanations for what you perceive. Flat earth is just a ridiculous version of such a thought experiment. It's a good exercise to make sure your understanding of the world around you is based on some consistent logic and not faith. Those who reject the idea of the earth being flat just because "science tells us" have no intellectual high ground over devout flat earthers, if they exist

jimsimmons 5y ago
Exactly. Believing in narrated science is no different than believing the mumbo jumbo they throw at you in scifi movies. For me the halting problem seems like common sense / basic science but it’s not for everybody. That’s where we need to recognise that what’s obvious or basic to us isn’t so for others. And that is a good thing!
NikolaeVarius 5y ago
I actually love flat earthers BECAUSE it forces me to actually think about how "I Know" the world is round. I bet a majority of people who are anti-flat earthers could not actually "prove" the earth is round without immediately appealing to authority. I've talked to flat earthers, (both probably real and some probably trolling), and it can be a fun intellectual exercise to debate.
- dools 5y ago
  You are allowed to appeal to authority. The "Argument from Authority" fallacy only applies when you appeal to a false authority, such as listening to your yoga instructor's opinions on vaccination. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
  - GolangProject 5y ago
    There are clear cases where "true authorities", however defined, have been wrong about all kinds of subjects, so the fallacy still applies. If you can only justify a belief by appealing to the assumed superior knowledge of experts and specialists, you cannot justify that belief as strongly as someone who can argue from first principles or a clear chain of evidence. The appeal to authority is not necessarily fallacious, but it's more likely to be so.

nimish 5y ago

It's a rather enlightening exercise to work out how and why the earth is curved purely from the perspective of a human able to see maybe a small patch. This is directly analogous to how general relativity models spacetime as being intrinsically curved, and you need to be able to do the same sort of thinking without being able to immerse the manifold in a higher dimensional space. So it's not exactly stupid to pretend to be naive. Also, why and by how much is the sun bigger than the moon? How far are they away from earth? We've known for thousands of years. It's not exactly obvious to derive this purely from geometry.

tarboreus 5y ago

You're saying you should only respect literate people. I say all people are fundamentally worthy of respect.

guerrilla 5y ago
Why? Why shouldn't respect be earned?
- SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
  In my opinion respect should be granted by default, and rescinded if the person has earned that
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    Why?
    - SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
      Seems like the decent thing to do
tremon 5y ago
Are you saying there's nothing anybody can do to lose your respect?

YEwSdObPQT 5y ago

ravenstine 5y ago

To many, though perhaps not most, organized religion is seen as equally ridiculous as flat-earth theory. Are religious people illiterate or not worth debating or worthy of some basic respect?