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The assymetry of benefits granted by this injunction between the employer and employee is shocking here. The nurses are not allowed to work for the new employer

The assymetry of benefits granted by this injunction between the employer and employee is shocking here. The nurses are not allowed to work for the new employer but the current employer isn't required match compensation until the case is resolved. This is on top of Wisconsin being an at-will state and there being no formal employment contract in this case. I'm not even sure how the judge is legally able to do this considering the material harm to employees. There seems to be a lot of discussion on this at r/nursing

bko 5y ago
> The nurses are not allowed to work for the new employer but the current employer isn't required match compensation until the case is resolved. Who cares about matching compensation? This is about the right to end employment and seek employment elsewhere. Right to provide a living for yourself and your family is a fundamental human right. It's appalling that this wasn't thrown out of court immediately. I'm not a fan of non-compete clauses, but at least there is a voluntary contractual component. In a broader sense, it's terrifying that this has even gotten so far and I fear it'll only get worse with more and more liberties being stripped away for [current emergency].
- sjansen 5y ago
  They’re not required to stay at the old employer, they’re just not allowed to start at the new employer. Cold comfort for anyone with bills to pay, but they aren’t being targeted by the decision, just the new employer. They’re free to go find a third employer. (Which is probably how the judge sleeps at night after putting so many people in an impossible situation.)
  - egberts1 5y ago
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Will the judge file injunctions against the next healthcare system that offers roles to ThedaCare ex employees? Where does it end? This judicial action warrants federal intervention. Otherwise we arguably don't have at will, somewhat free market employment, but instead crony capitalism feudalism ("you will work for who we allow you to work for"). Tangentially, ThedaCare's Level II Trauma accreditation (which hangs in the balance due to the departure of these workers [1]) should be re-evaluated. [1] https://www.wispolitics.com/2022/thedacare-seeks-to-protect-access-to-local-trauma-and-stroke-care/ https://www.wispolitics.com/2022/thedacare-seeks-to-protect-... Additional context: > Timothy Breister, an Appleton resident and one of the seven employees involved in the systems' dispute, submitted a letter to McGinnis Friday before the hearing describing his experience. > One of his colleagues received an offer from Ascension that was attractive "not just in pay but also a better work/life balance," which caused others on his team to apply, Breister wrote. > After approaching ThedaCare with the chance to match the offers they'd been given, Breister wrote that they were told "the long term expense to ThedaCare was not worth the short term cost," and no counter-offer would be made. https://news.yahoo.com/know-battle-over-fox-valley-235851212.html https://news.yahoo.com/know-battle-over-fox-valley-235851212...
  - andrei_says_ 5y ago
    So the new employer can employ them through a third party agency, right? And create said agency if needed.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Context reminder, in an emergency the government can also conscript you to go die in a foreign war
  - smorgusofborg 5y ago
    And of course a big problem has always been that Halliburton can't conscript you to improve their bottom line when fighting a foreign war. Good thing we are fixing that.
    - Frost1x 5y ago
      Although Halliburton can create the situation of pressures where the government conscripts you to war but the level of indirection for control over you is inconvenient. So we're really just making it a bit easier and cutting out the middle man. All hail our new leaders.
  - Jansen312 5y ago
    - Dracophoenix 5y ago
      Not a good example to give. One could just as easily argue that a social contract granted the Jan 6 rioters the right to storm the Capitol as though it were Bastille. There is no just cause for mobocratic vigilanteism of any kind.
  - camgunz 5y ago
    These are private hospitals, and the draft doesn't apply to women. This is a pretty bad comparison.
    - drewcoo 5y ago
      > the draft doesn't apply to women Or any other gender. There is no draft. We're all required to register with selective services in case there is one, though.
- raisim 5y ago
  I’m responding as a nurse. There has been tons of discussion about this situation amongst nurses all weekend long. Over the past couple of decades, in the private sector employers have crafted the norm of at will employment. Then during the previous administration this at will idea found it's way into civilian federal service with the requirement that federal employees complete not one, but TWO years of new employee probation. This, all because, you know, employees are lazy and shiftless. The sole purpose of this "at will" employment trend has been to guard the interest of corporations. Now dig this... In Wisconsin, it is not unusual for a new nurse, during onboarding, to be compelled to sign a form acknowledging that a FOUR week notice to quit is required in order to vacate a position. Then, buried deeper in the paperwork is a form that says that your employment is “at will.” So, they can fire a nurse on a dime, cause hey, "at will." But, the same nurse must give a 4 week notice to quit? Also, there are certain healthcare organizations that, if a nurse does not work out their notice, or does not provide advanced notice to quit, the company will pay all unpaid hours at MINIMUM wage. I personally know of two nurses that had to go through the time, expense, and stress to hire an attorney who to press the issue and the organization in order to be paid what is actually owed. Also, as a nurse, if one is to refuse an unsafe assignment, or speak up about an unsafe assignment, it is not uncommon to be threatened by administration to be reported to the board of nursing for patient abandonment. When really, how can you abandon patients that you have not taken responsibility for? But, who has the time, or energy, to die on that sword, especially when safe or not, there are sick patients that need care. Also, it is not uncommon for management, as they are punching out at 5pm, to compel nurses to hold over to cover staffing shortages. Again, threats of patient abandonment. These things that I am describing are not one off situations. These things happen routinely. Nurses have been over worked prior to the pandemic. Then when the pandemic hit, we became overworked selfless heroes, working in trash bags. Now that the nation, all the world really, is experiencing pandemic fatigue, we are being referred to in the press as selfish and money hungry wenches abandoning facilities, leaving a wake of staffing shortages as we depart to become guns for hire to the highest bidder. Which, by the way is at will employment at it’s finest. Now, the same corporations, who championed “at will” employment, treat nurses as an expense rather than a valuable finite resource and they have decided to spend money on legal fees rather than paying the extra $7/hr that the nurses were asking. The hospital would have retained their staff and we would not be having this discussion. But, instead, they are seeking to set a precedence, that in dire situations, nurses ought not be able to quit their jobs. Under the guise of protecting patients that don’t even exist they are attempting to interrupt the these nurses ability to make a living and the nurses are not even their employees anymore. Capitalism at its best, Ascension healthcare, paying what the market demands in order to hire employees with valuable and rare skills. This whole issue, to many of the nurses ai've talked to feels like Theada Care is trying extend the concept of compelling nurses to work, against their will, so future patients won’t be “abandoned.” They argued that the public at large would be at risk without the nurses being under their employment. Theda Care raised the alarm asking "where will the poor public receive their care?” I’ll tell you where… Across the street at the other hospital. You know, the one that values their staff and pays a competitive wage. Hospitals, I'm pretty sure, receive the exact same reimbursement from insurance whether they are staffed adequately or understaffed. If this is so, then hospitals actually profit when they are short staffed. Finally, we live in an age of a pandemic and emergency orders, issued by governors, that are in some cases extremely broad. For instance in Wisconsin, under the emergency order, patients lost the right to sue for malpractice… Patients could not sue at all, this included for errors that occurre during the delivery of routine care or during the course of elective procedures. This was unnecessarily broad and extremely protective of corporate interests at the expense of regular citizens. Just one example of the broad strokes our covid emergency order was written in. Finally, many commenters have raised the constitutional issues that are at stake in this situation. To most of us, these constitutional ideas exist in some ethereal space completely disconnected from our reality. They are important to us, but they seem like distant schoolhouse rock ideas. We don’t “see” constitutional questions, we feel oppressive working conditions that rob us of our ability to earn the living that we want, in the way we want. These conditions have robbed many of us of our soul... SeNd HeLp pLeAsE
- sleepingadmin 5y ago
  I believe the quote means, the nurses who now can't work should continue receiving their usual pay from their former employer(the one filing the lawsuit). Without working. "Paid leave" or whatever. In essence they are arguing these nurses have a non-compete, when they dont. As a judge I would approve this, disallowing the nurses from working for their new employer but also the old employer must keep paying them to sit at home. That'll put an end to these frivilous lawsuits quickly.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Natsu 5y ago
It seems a bit more limited than some are reporting: "On Friday, an Outagamie County judge ruled in favor of ThedaCare and issued this order: “Make available to ThedaCare one invasive radiology technician and one registered nurse of the individuals resigning their employment with ThedaCare to join Ascension, with their support to include on-call responsibilities or; “Cease the hiring of the individuals referenced until ThedaCare has hired adequate staff to replace the departing IRC team members.”" https://www.wbay.com/2022/01/20/thedacare-seeks-court-order-against-ascension-wisconsin-worker-dispute/ https://www.wbay.com/2022/01/20/thedacare-seeks-court-order-...
- itsdrewmiller 5y ago
  It's also a temporary injunction that could be ended as soon as their Monday 10am next meeting. Still not really sure why they should be able to get an injunction at all though.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    Probably until the facts can be figured out. To play Devil's Advocate, what if the hiring firm I was just paying them to leave a competitor and didn't have real roles for them to fill. That might constitute unfair business practices. Temporary injunction are often way to avoid major damages and see whats going on

bko 5y ago

> The nurses are not allowed to work for the new employer but the current employer isn't required match compensation until the case is resolved. Who cares about matching compensation? This is about the right to end employment and seek employment elsewhere. Right to provide a living for yourself and your family is a fundamental human right. It's appalling that this wasn't thrown out of court immediately. I'm not a fan of non-compete clauses, but at least there is a voluntary contractual component. In a broader sense, it's terrifying that this has even gotten so far and I fear it'll only get worse with more and more liberties being stripped away for [current emergency].

sjansen 5y ago
They’re not required to stay at the old employer, they’re just not allowed to start at the new employer. Cold comfort for anyone with bills to pay, but they aren’t being targeted by the decision, just the new employer. They’re free to go find a third employer. (Which is probably how the judge sleeps at night after putting so many people in an impossible situation.)
- egberts1 5y ago
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Will the judge file injunctions against the next healthcare system that offers roles to ThedaCare ex employees? Where does it end? This judicial action warrants federal intervention. Otherwise we arguably don't have at will, somewhat free market employment, but instead crony capitalism feudalism ("you will work for who we allow you to work for"). Tangentially, ThedaCare's Level II Trauma accreditation (which hangs in the balance due to the departure of these workers [1]) should be re-evaluated. [1] https://www.wispolitics.com/2022/thedacare-seeks-to-protect-access-to-local-trauma-and-stroke-care/ https://www.wispolitics.com/2022/thedacare-seeks-to-protect-... Additional context: > Timothy Breister, an Appleton resident and one of the seven employees involved in the systems' dispute, submitted a letter to McGinnis Friday before the hearing describing his experience. > One of his colleagues received an offer from Ascension that was attractive "not just in pay but also a better work/life balance," which caused others on his team to apply, Breister wrote. > After approaching ThedaCare with the chance to match the offers they'd been given, Breister wrote that they were told "the long term expense to ThedaCare was not worth the short term cost," and no counter-offer would be made. https://news.yahoo.com/know-battle-over-fox-valley-235851212.html https://news.yahoo.com/know-battle-over-fox-valley-235851212...
- andrei_says_ 5y ago
  So the new employer can employ them through a third party agency, right? And create said agency if needed.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
Context reminder, in an emergency the government can also conscript you to go die in a foreign war
- smorgusofborg 5y ago
  And of course a big problem has always been that Halliburton can't conscript you to improve their bottom line when fighting a foreign war. Good thing we are fixing that.
  - Frost1x 5y ago
    Although Halliburton can create the situation of pressures where the government conscripts you to war but the level of indirection for control over you is inconvenient. So we're really just making it a bit easier and cutting out the middle man. All hail our new leaders.
- Jansen312 5y ago
  - Dracophoenix 5y ago
    Not a good example to give. One could just as easily argue that a social contract granted the Jan 6 rioters the right to storm the Capitol as though it were Bastille. There is no just cause for mobocratic vigilanteism of any kind.
- camgunz 5y ago
  These are private hospitals, and the draft doesn't apply to women. This is a pretty bad comparison.
  - drewcoo 5y ago
    > the draft doesn't apply to women Or any other gender. There is no draft. We're all required to register with selective services in case there is one, though.
raisim 5y ago
I’m responding as a nurse. There has been tons of discussion about this situation amongst nurses all weekend long. Over the past couple of decades, in the private sector employers have crafted the norm of at will employment. Then during the previous administration this at will idea found it's way into civilian federal service with the requirement that federal employees complete not one, but TWO years of new employee probation. This, all because, you know, employees are lazy and shiftless. The sole purpose of this "at will" employment trend has been to guard the interest of corporations. Now dig this... In Wisconsin, it is not unusual for a new nurse, during onboarding, to be compelled to sign a form acknowledging that a FOUR week notice to quit is required in order to vacate a position. Then, buried deeper in the paperwork is a form that says that your employment is “at will.” So, they can fire a nurse on a dime, cause hey, "at will." But, the same nurse must give a 4 week notice to quit? Also, there are certain healthcare organizations that, if a nurse does not work out their notice, or does not provide advanced notice to quit, the company will pay all unpaid hours at MINIMUM wage. I personally know of two nurses that had to go through the time, expense, and stress to hire an attorney who to press the issue and the organization in order to be paid what is actually owed. Also, as a nurse, if one is to refuse an unsafe assignment, or speak up about an unsafe assignment, it is not uncommon to be threatened by administration to be reported to the board of nursing for patient abandonment. When really, how can you abandon patients that you have not taken responsibility for? But, who has the time, or energy, to die on that sword, especially when safe or not, there are sick patients that need care. Also, it is not uncommon for management, as they are punching out at 5pm, to compel nurses to hold over to cover staffing shortages. Again, threats of patient abandonment. These things that I am describing are not one off situations. These things happen routinely. Nurses have been over worked prior to the pandemic. Then when the pandemic hit, we became overworked selfless heroes, working in trash bags. Now that the nation, all the world really, is experiencing pandemic fatigue, we are being referred to in the press as selfish and money hungry wenches abandoning facilities, leaving a wake of staffing shortages as we depart to become guns for hire to the highest bidder. Which, by the way is at will employment at it’s finest. Now, the same corporations, who championed “at will” employment, treat nurses as an expense rather than a valuable finite resource and they have decided to spend money on legal fees rather than paying the extra $7/hr that the nurses were asking. The hospital would have retained their staff and we would not be having this discussion. But, instead, they are seeking to set a precedence, that in dire situations, nurses ought not be able to quit their jobs. Under the guise of protecting patients that don’t even exist they are attempting to interrupt the these nurses ability to make a living and the nurses are not even their employees anymore. Capitalism at its best, Ascension healthcare, paying what the market demands in order to hire employees with valuable and rare skills. This whole issue, to many of the nurses ai've talked to feels like Theada Care is trying extend the concept of compelling nurses to work, against their will, so future patients won’t be “abandoned.” They argued that the public at large would be at risk without the nurses being under their employment. Theda Care raised the alarm asking "where will the poor public receive their care?” I’ll tell you where… Across the street at the other hospital. You know, the one that values their staff and pays a competitive wage. Hospitals, I'm pretty sure, receive the exact same reimbursement from insurance whether they are staffed adequately or understaffed. If this is so, then hospitals actually profit when they are short staffed. Finally, we live in an age of a pandemic and emergency orders, issued by governors, that are in some cases extremely broad. For instance in Wisconsin, under the emergency order, patients lost the right to sue for malpractice… Patients could not sue at all, this included for errors that occurre during the delivery of routine care or during the course of elective procedures. This was unnecessarily broad and extremely protective of corporate interests at the expense of regular citizens. Just one example of the broad strokes our covid emergency order was written in. Finally, many commenters have raised the constitutional issues that are at stake in this situation. To most of us, these constitutional ideas exist in some ethereal space completely disconnected from our reality. They are important to us, but they seem like distant schoolhouse rock ideas. We don’t “see” constitutional questions, we feel oppressive working conditions that rob us of our ability to earn the living that we want, in the way we want. These conditions have robbed many of us of our soul... SeNd HeLp pLeAsE
sleepingadmin 5y ago
I believe the quote means, the nurses who now can't work should continue receiving their usual pay from their former employer(the one filing the lawsuit). Without working. "Paid leave" or whatever. In essence they are arguing these nurses have a non-compete, when they dont. As a judge I would approve this, disallowing the nurses from working for their new employer but also the old employer must keep paying them to sit at home. That'll put an end to these frivilous lawsuits quickly.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Natsu 5y ago

It seems a bit more limited than some are reporting: "On Friday, an Outagamie County judge ruled in favor of ThedaCare and issued this order: “Make available to ThedaCare one invasive radiology technician and one registered nurse of the individuals resigning their employment with ThedaCare to join Ascension, with their support to include on-call responsibilities or; “Cease the hiring of the individuals referenced until ThedaCare has hired adequate staff to replace the departing IRC team members.”" https://www.wbay.com/2022/01/20/thedacare-seeks-court-order-against-ascension-wisconsin-worker-dispute/ https://www.wbay.com/2022/01/20/thedacare-seeks-court-order-...

itsdrewmiller 5y ago
It's also a temporary injunction that could be ended as soon as their Monday 10am next meeting. Still not really sure why they should be able to get an injunction at all though.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Probably until the facts can be figured out. To play Devil's Advocate, what if the hiring firm I was just paying them to leave a competitor and didn't have real roles for them to fill. That might constitute unfair business practices. Temporary injunction are often way to avoid major damages and see whats going on