7 ms·

I've been so happy to see what Framework has been doing lately, and really want to support them, but I already have a desktop as my primary computer and two Thi

by ohazi 5y ago

I've been so happy to see what Framework has been doing lately, and really want to support them, but I already have a desktop as my primary computer and two Thinkpads that are already set up nicely, but that I rarely use. I moved from 15" laptops to 14" when Lenovo added the numpad on the larger variant, and 14" is about as small as I want to go. I kind of want to buy a framework though, just to support them? But I have no use for another laptop, let alone a small 12" one! Should I get one anyway because, what the hell, why not? Should I wait and then jump on one if/when they release a larger model? Anybody else have similar feelings? Edit to add: I also have one of the last Thinkpad models that support S3 sleep (T480 -- within a model or two, I think?), which is currently super critical for Linux... I need to be able to close the lid and come back after a week. It's easy to blame the manufacturers for this, but the consistent answer seems to be "Intel's Tiger Lake platform does not support S3 sleep," and all of the system builders base their work on what Intel's reference platform does. So short of going to extreme effort to hack it together themselves (something that is likely not their specialty), reasonable sleep behavior is not going to be an option unless Intel brings S3 back, or does work to improve the S0ix states. I absolutely do not want to support the no-more-S3 clusterfuck right now.

jrop 5y ago
Buy someone else in your circles a Framework Laptop who needs a laptop! Or gift them one of your ThinkPads and get yourself a framework!
gtsop 5y ago
Similar feelings, yes. I don't mind the size at all. It's just that I've got a sweet thinkpad x13 already. My next laptop though, surely a framework (if they are still around)
mmastrac 5y ago
Adding my vote: I'll definitely jump on a Framework 14+" here. My eyes cannot work well w/a 13" without glasses. If I had better near vision (will be all over the lens-softening eye drops) it would be a different story.
- sydd 5y ago
  I think Apple hit here the sweet spot with the 13" and 16" sizes. My wife (a teacher) loves his 13" one, it's ideal for her to make video calls, write emails etc. For me as a developer at least 15" is a must, even though I love Framework, I'll only buy if they release a 15" or 16" version.
staindk 5y ago
FWIW I don't think you should buy a laptop from them just to support them. Just adding to e-waste down the line, and I'm sure they are selling enough units. In the future when you do actually need/want a new laptop of course it would be great to support them then. And advocate for them when a friend asks about what laptop to buy.
- ohazi 5y ago
  Completely agree about e-waste, and as a result, I try to take good care of my laptops and use them for as long as I can (I used my previous one for about a decade, and it's still perfectly usable plugged in / for light tasks).
  - lillecarl 5y ago
    I try to make sure to limit the max charge percentage to 80 on all devices I use. Voltage in many lithium cells increase with heat, so if you're already at full charge you might overvolt you battery. This is why new devices are shipped with 66% charge, because the same applies to cold and undervolting, both ruin the cells.
- NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
  Could buy one and donate it to someone else, or a library.
  - freeopinion 5y ago
    I can supply a mailing address.
    - pvillano 5y ago
      lol. you could also donate the old laptop
imiric 5y ago
From reports I've read the Framework laptop has poor build quality. This comment from here actually: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29807585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29807585 I'd like to support their cause, but like you, I have way too many machines that already work well enough, that I can't justify another purchase unless it would offer a substantial improvement over my current setup (old ThinkPads). Plus I really can't function without a Trackpoint ;) So I'm holding out a generation or two to reconsider. I hope they improve.
- gorjusborg 5y ago
  Are you talking about personal testimonials, or published data? If it's published data, mind sharing a link?
  - imiric 5y ago
    It was a recent thread here on HN. Let me see if I can find it... This comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29807585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29807585 Some of these issues could be subjective, and I shouldn't decide based on that single report alone, but it was enough reason to reconsider the purchase, especially since, like I said, I really don't need a new machine.
    - duck 5y ago
      I would say all that is subjective regarding what they specified as "build quality". I'll add my own take to it - I got mine early last month and haven't noticed any of those. That said, I do think the battery is the weak spot, but I think part of that is on the OS side (I'm running Pop!OS).
    - gorjusborg 5y ago
      Thank you for sharing!
    - rpdillon 5y ago
      Had mine since July, batch 1. No build quality issues at all from my perspective...one of my favorite keyboards to type on. Battery is not so good, though.
alufers 5y ago
Sorry for changing the topic but does anybody know the reason Intel has removed the seep states? It drives me absolutely nuts when I open my bag and feel the heat coming out of it, and my laptop is left with 20% charge.
- ohazi 5y ago
  I believe the push came from Microsoft. Apple has been able to do "clever" things while asleep, like waking up the wifi chipset periodically to check for email / messages / notifications / updates, so that when you wake up, everything magically feels ready to go instead of feeling like you just woke up from 1984 and have reams of crap to download. But this only works well because Apple does their own firmware for most of the machine, and seems to do a reasonably good job, despite a few issues. They're careful about only doing things that aren't going to obliterate the battery in a way that would be surprising. Microsoft is jealous of this functionality and knows they want something like that for Windows. They also know they need to cater to the lowest common denominator with system builders, so they asked Intel to put this kind of capability into their platforms, and to explicitly disable the old modes, so that system builders wouldn't be able to drag their feet. The result is that they've all switched, but the outcomes are generally poor and high variance. Sometimes they're passably okay within Windows, but not always. It'll probably get better, but for now things are crap, especially on Linux.
  - Already__Taken 5y ago
    Why is this hard? Like I know it's all hard. But is it just new? or is it not documented at all, or some structural issue with how distros expect states to work?
  - FredFS456 5y ago
    I believe it's configurable in firmware, as my ThinkPad e14 gen 2 has a BIOS option to set the sleep state behaviour. The options are labelled "Windows" and "Linux".
- danuker 5y ago
  The correct course of action is to return the "defective" product.
khimaros 5y ago
invest in the company financially
- raybb 5y ago
  It doesn't seem like that's possible right now: https://community.frame.work/t/investing-in-framework/3980/19 https://community.frame.work/t/investing-in-framework/3980/1...
joelthelion 5y ago
Sell your Thinkpads and buy one of their laptops?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
adamweld 5y ago
Can anyone recommend a laptop that gets great battery life on Linux and has a good keyboard? I've been thinking about selling my current beefy laptop (razer blade 15) since I end up doing all my MCAD/ECAD work on my desktop anyway, and moving back to Manjaro on my laptop which only really gets used for software/firmware anyway. But, I read so many horror stories about linux firmware glitchyness and poor battery life that I gave up on the idea. If I can just by a used thinkpad from a few generations ago that might be perfect.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  I get decent but not amazing battery life on my XPS 15, running Pop_OS. About 5-6 hours of actual use time. No major firmware issues but it is using Nvidia. XPS 15 laptops appear to have an unresolved mouse lag issue that is noticeable under linux (but seems to happen in Windows too). Seems to not happen with external mice. Annoying but not a big deal. There is an open issue for it but no patch yet.
  - harry8 5y ago
    had one. It died. Battery swelled up, I replaced it. It died forever because, I think. I closed the lid and put it in my bag. Doing exactly that is what makes a laptop a laptop. It was a couple of months out of warranty and you can't even contact Dell to say "Is this your quality? Is this acceptable to you that your laptop is this bad?" You need to plug in serial numbers on their website and they just tell you to get lost. Can't email them. Can't do anything. So yes. The Dell. I do NOT recommend. They are garbage quality devices and their support is utterly terrible. Wildly overpriced for what you actually get. Avoid.
- Beltalowda 5y ago
  My ThinkPad x270 runs perfectly on Linux out of the box (including Bluetooth, webcam, etc.), and with the larger 9-cell battery (+ the smaller internal battery it comes with) it ran almost 20 hours for normal coding usage when new (less with other usage, and of course it's gone down a bit since, but can still work a full day on it). It should be said I run a pretty minimal system (dwm, st, Vim, stuff like that) and usually throttle the system to "powersave", mostly because the fans will never spin up with it. It's a bit slower, but still plenty fast enough for me.
ziml77 5y ago
Hopefully they are able to expand their lineup to include a 15" model. I tried to work on a 14" MacBook Pro and ended up returning it because it felt too small. Though I probably still wouldn't exchange my 16" M1 MBP for a 15" Framework laptop unless Framework manages to even come close to competing with M1's power efficiency. That really depends on a chip designer making something competitive though. Not much Framework can do other than find ways to improve Linux's power management.
grp000 5y ago
I'm waiting for something with beefier internals, or an AMD variant, or both. That being said, they'd have to redesign the power delivery system and thermals, so maybe it would no longer be as modular? Anyone with the knowledge care to weigh in?
- pvillano 5y ago
  there wouldn't be any new parts except the mainboard/cpu/heatsink. It's unlikely for someone to want to replace only one of those*. I don't see a loss for customizability or repairability * very few people can solder a cpu and I've never heard of a heatsink needing replacement
  - grp000 5y ago
    Funny you say that, my current laptop has a really low wattage chip and as a result, a very small heatsink. As I was removing the plasticy thermal dividers that insulate the rest of the board from the heat of the heatsink so I could lap the contact area, I bent the heat-pipe and pinched it, since it was so thin and fragile. That being said, that's a bummer. Would be nice to get a higher end compute option or one with a dGPU.
  - Shared404 5y ago
    > I've never heard of a heatsink needing replacement It definitely happens. Usually as a direct result of someone just not taking care of their machine at all, but it still happens. Source: work at independent repair shop.
  - bserge 5y ago
chx 5y ago
What? I have a Tiger Lake ThinkPad , an X1 Extreme Gen 4, and https://i.imgur.com/RUI9rnd.png https://i.imgur.com/RUI9rnd.png it definitely supports S3 sleep, it's a simple BIOS setting. You can go to https://download.lenovo.com/bsco/index.html https://download.lenovo.com/bsco/index.html and see for yourself, it's their BIOS simular.
smichel17 5y ago
Perhaps find an open source project they depend on and donate to it.
mkbkn 5y ago
You can try re-selling your existing laptops in the local market. Plently of buy-sell communities on forums or groups. Sure, you won't get your buy price but you will get a decent amount back. Then go for the Framework one.
Lio 5y ago
I wouldn’t buy a Framework right now because they come bundled with Windows and not Linux. I want paid Linux support upfront. I don’t want to pay for Windows support, remove it and then run unsupported Linux on my laptop. A manufacturer saying “this is a Windows laptop but we won’t stop you running Linux on it” isn’t really good enough for what I want.
- r_hoods_ghost 5y ago
  You can go for the DIY version without Windows installed, but you have to assemble it yourself and there isn't a supported version of Linux it seems. Giving you the option of preassembled but with no OS installed would seem to be the logical next step before maybe offering a supported Linux version down the line if it's commercially viable.
- vaylian 5y ago
  > I wouldn’t buy a Framework right now because they come bundled with Windows and not Linux. That only applies to the prebuild laptop. The DIY edition gives you the option to buy the laptop without an operating system. It's fairly easy to assemble the DIY edition yourself and save money by DIY. They officially support Linux: https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop
  - Lio 5y ago
    That’s still not quite what I’m looking for. It’s not the “not paying for Windows” angle for me. I don’t care much about that. I can just treat it like an unused part of the package, like a foreign power adapter. It might even be useful someday. What I really want is to positively pay for vendor Linux support, pre-installed. I want the vendor to benefit from Linux and know why they’re supporting it for me. I guess they could change that in the future though so it’s still worth keeping an eye on.
culi 5y ago
I agree with not adding unnecessary e-waste to the current crisis. But perhaps you have someone in your life that could really use a laptop? You could get them a gift if they're interested in the laptop

by ohazi 5y ago

jrop 5y ago

Buy someone else in your circles a Framework Laptop who needs a laptop! Or gift them one of your ThinkPads and get yourself a framework!

gtsop 5y ago

Similar feelings, yes. I don't mind the size at all. It's just that I've got a sweet thinkpad x13 already. My next laptop though, surely a framework (if they are still around)

mmastrac 5y ago

Adding my vote: I'll definitely jump on a Framework 14+" here. My eyes cannot work well w/a 13" without glasses. If I had better near vision (will be all over the lens-softening eye drops) it would be a different story.

sydd 5y ago
I think Apple hit here the sweet spot with the 13" and 16" sizes. My wife (a teacher) loves his 13" one, it's ideal for her to make video calls, write emails etc. For me as a developer at least 15" is a must, even though I love Framework, I'll only buy if they release a 15" or 16" version.

staindk 5y ago

FWIW I don't think you should buy a laptop from them just to support them. Just adding to e-waste down the line, and I'm sure they are selling enough units. In the future when you do actually need/want a new laptop of course it would be great to support them then. And advocate for them when a friend asks about what laptop to buy.

ohazi 5y ago
Completely agree about e-waste, and as a result, I try to take good care of my laptops and use them for as long as I can (I used my previous one for about a decade, and it's still perfectly usable plugged in / for light tasks).
- lillecarl 5y ago
  I try to make sure to limit the max charge percentage to 80 on all devices I use. Voltage in many lithium cells increase with heat, so if you're already at full charge you might overvolt you battery. This is why new devices are shipped with 66% charge, because the same applies to cold and undervolting, both ruin the cells.
NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
Could buy one and donate it to someone else, or a library.
- freeopinion 5y ago
  I can supply a mailing address.
  - pvillano 5y ago
    lol. you could also donate the old laptop

imiric 5y ago

From reports I've read the Framework laptop has poor build quality. This comment from here actually: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29807585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29807585 I'd like to support their cause, but like you, I have way too many machines that already work well enough, that I can't justify another purchase unless it would offer a substantial improvement over my current setup (old ThinkPads). Plus I really can't function without a Trackpoint ;) So I'm holding out a generation or two to reconsider. I hope they improve.

gorjusborg 5y ago
Are you talking about personal testimonials, or published data? If it's published data, mind sharing a link?
- imiric 5y ago
  It was a recent thread here on HN. Let me see if I can find it... This comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29807585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29807585 Some of these issues could be subjective, and I shouldn't decide based on that single report alone, but it was enough reason to reconsider the purchase, especially since, like I said, I really don't need a new machine.
  - duck 5y ago
    I would say all that is subjective regarding what they specified as "build quality". I'll add my own take to it - I got mine early last month and haven't noticed any of those. That said, I do think the battery is the weak spot, but I think part of that is on the OS side (I'm running Pop!OS).
  - gorjusborg 5y ago
    Thank you for sharing!
  - rpdillon 5y ago
    Had mine since July, batch 1. No build quality issues at all from my perspective...one of my favorite keyboards to type on. Battery is not so good, though.

alufers 5y ago

Sorry for changing the topic but does anybody know the reason Intel has removed the seep states? It drives me absolutely nuts when I open my bag and feel the heat coming out of it, and my laptop is left with 20% charge.

ohazi 5y ago
I believe the push came from Microsoft. Apple has been able to do "clever" things while asleep, like waking up the wifi chipset periodically to check for email / messages / notifications / updates, so that when you wake up, everything magically feels ready to go instead of feeling like you just woke up from 1984 and have reams of crap to download. But this only works well because Apple does their own firmware for most of the machine, and seems to do a reasonably good job, despite a few issues. They're careful about only doing things that aren't going to obliterate the battery in a way that would be surprising. Microsoft is jealous of this functionality and knows they want something like that for Windows. They also know they need to cater to the lowest common denominator with system builders, so they asked Intel to put this kind of capability into their platforms, and to explicitly disable the old modes, so that system builders wouldn't be able to drag their feet. The result is that they've all switched, but the outcomes are generally poor and high variance. Sometimes they're passably okay within Windows, but not always. It'll probably get better, but for now things are crap, especially on Linux.
- Already__Taken 5y ago
  Why is this hard? Like I know it's all hard. But is it just new? or is it not documented at all, or some structural issue with how distros expect states to work?
- FredFS456 5y ago
  I believe it's configurable in firmware, as my ThinkPad e14 gen 2 has a BIOS option to set the sleep state behaviour. The options are labelled "Windows" and "Linux".
danuker 5y ago
The correct course of action is to return the "defective" product.

khimaros 5y ago

invest in the company financially

raybb 5y ago
It doesn't seem like that's possible right now: https://community.frame.work/t/investing-in-framework/3980/19 https://community.frame.work/t/investing-in-framework/3980/1...

joelthelion 5y ago

Sell your Thinkpads and buy one of their laptops?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

adamweld 5y ago

Can anyone recommend a laptop that gets great battery life on Linux and has a good keyboard? I've been thinking about selling my current beefy laptop (razer blade 15) since I end up doing all my MCAD/ECAD work on my desktop anyway, and moving back to Manjaro on my laptop which only really gets used for software/firmware anyway. But, I read so many horror stories about linux firmware glitchyness and poor battery life that I gave up on the idea. If I can just by a used thinkpad from a few generations ago that might be perfect.

vorpalhex 5y ago
I get decent but not amazing battery life on my XPS 15, running Pop_OS. About 5-6 hours of actual use time. No major firmware issues but it is using Nvidia. XPS 15 laptops appear to have an unresolved mouse lag issue that is noticeable under linux (but seems to happen in Windows too). Seems to not happen with external mice. Annoying but not a big deal. There is an open issue for it but no patch yet.
- harry8 5y ago
  had one. It died. Battery swelled up, I replaced it. It died forever because, I think. I closed the lid and put it in my bag. Doing exactly that is what makes a laptop a laptop. It was a couple of months out of warranty and you can't even contact Dell to say "Is this your quality? Is this acceptable to you that your laptop is this bad?" You need to plug in serial numbers on their website and they just tell you to get lost. Can't email them. Can't do anything. So yes. The Dell. I do NOT recommend. They are garbage quality devices and their support is utterly terrible. Wildly overpriced for what you actually get. Avoid.
Beltalowda 5y ago
My ThinkPad x270 runs perfectly on Linux out of the box (including Bluetooth, webcam, etc.), and with the larger 9-cell battery (+ the smaller internal battery it comes with) it ran almost 20 hours for normal coding usage when new (less with other usage, and of course it's gone down a bit since, but can still work a full day on it). It should be said I run a pretty minimal system (dwm, st, Vim, stuff like that) and usually throttle the system to "powersave", mostly because the fans will never spin up with it. It's a bit slower, but still plenty fast enough for me.

ziml77 5y ago

Hopefully they are able to expand their lineup to include a 15" model. I tried to work on a 14" MacBook Pro and ended up returning it because it felt too small. Though I probably still wouldn't exchange my 16" M1 MBP for a 15" Framework laptop unless Framework manages to even come close to competing with M1's power efficiency. That really depends on a chip designer making something competitive though. Not much Framework can do other than find ways to improve Linux's power management.

grp000 5y ago

I'm waiting for something with beefier internals, or an AMD variant, or both. That being said, they'd have to redesign the power delivery system and thermals, so maybe it would no longer be as modular? Anyone with the knowledge care to weigh in?

pvillano 5y ago
there wouldn't be any new parts except the mainboard/cpu/heatsink. It's unlikely for someone to want to replace only one of those*. I don't see a loss for customizability or repairability * very few people can solder a cpu and I've never heard of a heatsink needing replacement
- grp000 5y ago
  Funny you say that, my current laptop has a really low wattage chip and as a result, a very small heatsink. As I was removing the plasticy thermal dividers that insulate the rest of the board from the heat of the heatsink so I could lap the contact area, I bent the heat-pipe and pinched it, since it was so thin and fragile. That being said, that's a bummer. Would be nice to get a higher end compute option or one with a dGPU.
- Shared404 5y ago
  > I've never heard of a heatsink needing replacement It definitely happens. Usually as a direct result of someone just not taking care of their machine at all, but it still happens. Source: work at independent repair shop.
- bserge 5y ago

chx 5y ago

What? I have a Tiger Lake ThinkPad , an X1 Extreme Gen 4, and https://i.imgur.com/RUI9rnd.png https://i.imgur.com/RUI9rnd.png it definitely supports S3 sleep, it's a simple BIOS setting. You can go to https://download.lenovo.com/bsco/index.html https://download.lenovo.com/bsco/index.html and see for yourself, it's their BIOS simular.

smichel17 5y ago

Perhaps find an open source project they depend on and donate to it.

mkbkn 5y ago

You can try re-selling your existing laptops in the local market. Plently of buy-sell communities on forums or groups. Sure, you won't get your buy price but you will get a decent amount back. Then go for the Framework one.

Lio 5y ago

I wouldn’t buy a Framework right now because they come bundled with Windows and not Linux. I want paid Linux support upfront. I don’t want to pay for Windows support, remove it and then run unsupported Linux on my laptop. A manufacturer saying “this is a Windows laptop but we won’t stop you running Linux on it” isn’t really good enough for what I want.

r_hoods_ghost 5y ago
You can go for the DIY version without Windows installed, but you have to assemble it yourself and there isn't a supported version of Linux it seems. Giving you the option of preassembled but with no OS installed would seem to be the logical next step before maybe offering a supported Linux version down the line if it's commercially viable.
vaylian 5y ago
> I wouldn’t buy a Framework right now because they come bundled with Windows and not Linux. That only applies to the prebuild laptop. The DIY edition gives you the option to buy the laptop without an operating system. It's fairly easy to assemble the DIY edition yourself and save money by DIY. They officially support Linux: https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop
- Lio 5y ago
  That’s still not quite what I’m looking for. It’s not the “not paying for Windows” angle for me. I don’t care much about that. I can just treat it like an unused part of the package, like a foreign power adapter. It might even be useful someday. What I really want is to positively pay for vendor Linux support, pre-installed. I want the vendor to benefit from Linux and know why they’re supporting it for me. I guess they could change that in the future though so it’s still worth keeping an eye on.

culi 5y ago

I agree with not adding unnecessary e-waste to the current crisis. But perhaps you have someone in your life that could really use a laptop? You could get them a gift if they're interested in the laptop