4 ms·

Really hoping for the laptop's next iteration to have a reverse T for the arrow keys. Otherwise very solid laptop, would be my first non-Mac choice.

capableweb 5y ago
Wow, you're right! Didn't understand how you could not have a reverse T for the arrow keys and took a look at the pictures. The up/down keys are split in half?! Why'd you make the arrow keys have different sizes?!
- yurishimo 5y ago
  It was the design on MacBook's for almost 5 years. Apple rolled that change back in late 2020 but it will take other OEM's a while to update their available SKUs to match the Apple of today.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    My ex-boyfriend called me "insane", but I genuinely prefer ye olde 6-key arrow cluster from the Thinkpads of yore. I quickly got used to browsing with pgup and pgdown, now any keyboard without those keys adjacent to the arrows just feels wrong to me. In any case, the keyboard on the Framework is fully replaceable. If there's significant enough demand for an inverted-T cluster, you can bet there are people who will make the replacement for it (if OEM doesn't get to it first).
    - Eduard 5y ago
      And I hate the ThinkPad 6-key cluster because of accidentally hitting the pgup and pgdown buttons. I decapped both buttons because of it. Same with the the fn button next to ctrl.
      - smoldesu 5y ago
        Different strokes for different folks. I'm personally just glad that we were able to collectively hate the Touch Bar enough for Apple to '86 it.
        yurishimo 5y ago
        Pedantry incoming, but “86” doesn’t need the apostrophe before it. The etymology from what I remember comes from the fact that if asking for 86 of anything at once is impossible to provide.
  - bubblethink 5y ago
    So that's where all this comes from. Not surprising. I saw that Dell announced a touchbar product. Guess they'll have to kill that too. This sort of slavish aping of Apple needs to stop.
varispeed 5y ago
This is I don't understand. Why laptop manufacturers neglect probably the most important thing that is the keyboard? Almost every single laptop that comes out these days looks like the keyboard is an afterthought. Why can't I have full size cursor keys? Pg Up, Pg Down, Home, End and few others?
- tomtheelder 5y ago
  I suspect majority of users never touch Pg Up/Pg Dn/Home/End and all those other keys over there. For arrow keys, the compacted layout is helpful when designing a space constrained keyboard, and it's totally usable.
  - varispeed 5y ago
    Wouldn't that be because these keys are difficult to use in typical laptop keyboard, as in self fulfilling prophecy?
    - franga2000 5y ago
      It probably doesn't help, but it definitely isn't the reason. Most people still do their work on desktops with full-sized keyboards and they already don't use those keys there.
      - varispeed 5y ago
        So how they e.g. move around cells in the spreadsheet or documents?
        franga2000 5y ago
        Mouse. If you're correcting data in a spreadsheet you're probably jumping around a lot and a mouse makes more sense and if you're entering new data most people I've worked with use tab and enter.
  - dsego 5y ago
bbojan 5y ago
Because I'm down the rabbit hole of highly customized keyboards, at one point I did a frequency analysis of the keys I use the most. Guess what was the most frequently used key? Cursor down followed by cursor up. For example, cursor down was pressed ~2.5x more times than space, or ~4 times more than letter E, which is was the most frequently used letter. Guess what are the smallest keys on a Mac-type keyboard (the layout also used by the Framework laptop). Cursor up and down. Madness.
- panick21_ 5y ago
  I love the ThinkPad with the Arrow Key and PgUp/PgDown all next to each other.
  - jpetso 5y ago
    Rejoice, Lenovo is introducing a ThinkPad that finally lets them scrap this excellent setup for a mainstream rectangular keyboard: Z13 and Z16. Doubly sad because those look like a kick-ass AMD Ryzen implementation otherwise. Trippy sad because they also found a way to get rid of the physical TrackPoint buttons and still call it a ThinkPad. The writing is on the wall, just wait for Lenovo to finally extinguish their ugly step-child of asymmetry and deprive us of the last good arrow key layout left in portable laptops.
- walteweiss 5y ago
  I am on a Mac for over a decade and I don’t understand what’s the issue with the keys. Well, they are smaller, but it’s not a problem for me, not at all.
- franga2000 5y ago
  Keep in mind this is likely unique to CLI users. The vast majority of users have little use for arrow keys - nudging the text cursor a few chars left/right and making tiny moves in graphics software are about the only two I can think of.
  - earthscienceman 5y ago
moondev 5y ago
In theory you can just buy the keyboard and swap in when/if it becomes available https://frame.work/marketplace/keyboards https://frame.work/marketplace/keyboards
nguyenkien 5y ago
I hate half size arrow keys, why don't make it normal size.
deburo 5y ago
Oh yeah, that would be awesome. I’ve searched for a proper tkl layout in laptops. There’s the current layout in Frame.work which is think is probably the worst, then current Macbook, then finally HP Omen (tkl) (but its kind of a shitty laptop). Ive also seen a laptop with the arrow keys slightly offset downward.

capableweb 5y ago

Wow, you're right! Didn't understand how you could not have a reverse T for the arrow keys and took a look at the pictures. The up/down keys are split in half?! Why'd you make the arrow keys have different sizes?!

yurishimo 5y ago
It was the design on MacBook's for almost 5 years. Apple rolled that change back in late 2020 but it will take other OEM's a while to update their available SKUs to match the Apple of today.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  My ex-boyfriend called me "insane", but I genuinely prefer ye olde 6-key arrow cluster from the Thinkpads of yore. I quickly got used to browsing with pgup and pgdown, now any keyboard without those keys adjacent to the arrows just feels wrong to me. In any case, the keyboard on the Framework is fully replaceable. If there's significant enough demand for an inverted-T cluster, you can bet there are people who will make the replacement for it (if OEM doesn't get to it first).
  - Eduard 5y ago
    And I hate the ThinkPad 6-key cluster because of accidentally hitting the pgup and pgdown buttons. I decapped both buttons because of it. Same with the the fn button next to ctrl.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      Different strokes for different folks. I'm personally just glad that we were able to collectively hate the Touch Bar enough for Apple to '86 it.
      - yurishimo 5y ago
        Pedantry incoming, but “86” doesn’t need the apostrophe before it. The etymology from what I remember comes from the fact that if asking for 86 of anything at once is impossible to provide.
- bubblethink 5y ago
  So that's where all this comes from. Not surprising. I saw that Dell announced a touchbar product. Guess they'll have to kill that too. This sort of slavish aping of Apple needs to stop.

varispeed 5y ago

This is I don't understand. Why laptop manufacturers neglect probably the most important thing that is the keyboard? Almost every single laptop that comes out these days looks like the keyboard is an afterthought. Why can't I have full size cursor keys? Pg Up, Pg Down, Home, End and few others?

tomtheelder 5y ago
I suspect majority of users never touch Pg Up/Pg Dn/Home/End and all those other keys over there. For arrow keys, the compacted layout is helpful when designing a space constrained keyboard, and it's totally usable.
- varispeed 5y ago
  Wouldn't that be because these keys are difficult to use in typical laptop keyboard, as in self fulfilling prophecy?
  - franga2000 5y ago
    It probably doesn't help, but it definitely isn't the reason. Most people still do their work on desktops with full-sized keyboards and they already don't use those keys there.
    - varispeed 5y ago
      So how they e.g. move around cells in the spreadsheet or documents?
      - franga2000 5y ago
        Mouse. If you're correcting data in a spreadsheet you're probably jumping around a lot and a mouse makes more sense and if you're entering new data most people I've worked with use tab and enter.
- dsego 5y ago

bbojan 5y ago

Because I'm down the rabbit hole of highly customized keyboards, at one point I did a frequency analysis of the keys I use the most. Guess what was the most frequently used key? Cursor down followed by cursor up. For example, cursor down was pressed ~2.5x more times than space, or ~4 times more than letter E, which is was the most frequently used letter. Guess what are the smallest keys on a Mac-type keyboard (the layout also used by the Framework laptop). Cursor up and down. Madness.

panick21_ 5y ago
I love the ThinkPad with the Arrow Key and PgUp/PgDown all next to each other.
- jpetso 5y ago
  Rejoice, Lenovo is introducing a ThinkPad that finally lets them scrap this excellent setup for a mainstream rectangular keyboard: Z13 and Z16. Doubly sad because those look like a kick-ass AMD Ryzen implementation otherwise. Trippy sad because they also found a way to get rid of the physical TrackPoint buttons and still call it a ThinkPad. The writing is on the wall, just wait for Lenovo to finally extinguish their ugly step-child of asymmetry and deprive us of the last good arrow key layout left in portable laptops.
walteweiss 5y ago
I am on a Mac for over a decade and I don’t understand what’s the issue with the keys. Well, they are smaller, but it’s not a problem for me, not at all.
franga2000 5y ago
Keep in mind this is likely unique to CLI users. The vast majority of users have little use for arrow keys - nudging the text cursor a few chars left/right and making tiny moves in graphics software are about the only two I can think of.
- earthscienceman 5y ago

moondev 5y ago

In theory you can just buy the keyboard and swap in when/if it becomes available https://frame.work/marketplace/keyboards https://frame.work/marketplace/keyboards

nguyenkien 5y ago

I hate half size arrow keys, why don't make it normal size.

deburo 5y ago

Oh yeah, that would be awesome. I’ve searched for a proper tkl layout in laptops. There’s the current layout in Frame.work which is think is probably the worst, then current Macbook, then finally HP Omen (tkl) (but its kind of a shitty laptop). Ive also seen a laptop with the arrow keys slightly offset downward.