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They are not "natural" in the sense that humans don't consume ethyl alcohol to survive, in fact it is often quite damaging to biological systems. Apart from som

They are not "natural" in the sense that humans don't consume ethyl alcohol to survive, in fact it is often quite damaging to biological systems. Apart from some microbes I'm not aware of any other organisms that use alcohol as their energy source. Alcohol/thc/caffeine/nicotine (you name it) do not fall in the "natural" diet of humans. Most psychoactive substances are metabolites which plants/fungi store in them to deter other animals from eating them.

dnh44 5y ago
Humans aren't the only mammals on this planet that consume alcohol. https://news.berkeley.edu/2014/07/01/drunken-monkeys-and-our-thirst-for-booze/ https://news.berkeley.edu/2014/07/01/drunken-monkeys-and-our...
- rex_lupi 5y ago
  That'd still be "recreational use", not as staple food
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    Is anybody in this discussion advocating alcohol as a staple food? A staple food is something that makes up a dominant portion of one's diet; it's beyond a mere common or everyday food. A staple food, food staple, or simply a staple, is a food that is eaten routinely and in such quantities that it constitutes a dominant portion of a standard diet for a given person or group of people, supplying a large fraction of energy needs and generally forming a significant proportion of the intake of other nutrients as well I would certainly agree with you that alcohol is not a very safe choice for a staple food!
Karrot_Kream 5y ago
Sure, but what if you tripped and sprained your ankle? Yeah it hurts in the moment, but would it cognitively impair you the next day? It certainly might; maybe when you're thinking about something while in the shower, you put too much weight on the ankle and the pain makes you drop your train of thought. I think the point that GP was going for was (or what I read at least) that there are many human experiences which cause some form of cognitive impairment; it's more important to see how deleterious the impairment actually is to the individual and to society before judging it.
revax 5y ago
>Alcohol/thc/caffeine/nicotine (you name it) do not fall in the "natural" diet of humans. Well Sapiens likely consumed naturally fermented fruits even 200.000 years ago, after all we evolved to produce certain enzymes to digest ethanol. Alcohol have shaped human cultures for thousand years, hardly unnatural. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/article/alcohol-discovery-addiction-booze-human-culture https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/article/alcohol-...
- kumarvvr 5y ago
  Your argument is absurd. Sure, some caveman consumed alcohol that happened to occur naturally a gazillion years ago. So? You think huge factories producing alcohol and all the issues associated with it are justified? By what you say, if whole of humanity consumed only naturally fermented fruit, I would half-heartedly agree.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - chii 5y ago
    > You think huge factories producing alcohol and all the issues associated with it are justified? Humans also don't "naturally" need to be writing fictions, or draw pictures or make movies. And conversely, murder is pretty natural - take a look at how often it happens in nature! Whether something is "natural" or not is a bit irrelevant - the big question is whether the action should be acceptable for humans to do. Drinking alcohol affects the person drinking it, but it gives them some comfort, or happiness. As long as they don't drink so much that it harms another person, i say they can do what they wish! Same with pot and other recreational drugs.
    - themaninthedark 5y ago
      Not just murder, wars and genocide.
- 988747 5y ago
  Still we are not hamsters - hamsters can take 20x the amount of alcohol per body weight as humans, because for them it IS natural to base their diet on fermented fruits from their stashes. Humans are not like that.
TylerE 5y ago
For thousands of years humans routinely (e.g with every meal, even children) consumed low alcohol beer/wine), because it could be safely stored for extended periods, unlike water. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer
- blacksmith_tb 5y ago
  Sure, just like lacto-fermenting foods to preserve them. However stored water could always be boiled? I have always thought it was funny that the most obvious "health benefit" of tea-drinking was boiling water to prepare it (yes, I realize not all teas are brewed so hot, and there are plenty of interesting compounds in there, but still...)
fogihujy 5y ago
SSRI's or Benzodapines have severe side-effects, yet relying on them to survive isn't seen as disruptive to society. There may be an argument against self-medicating with Alcohol or Cannabis, but them being un-natural isn't it.
- rex_lupi 5y ago
  That's totally not the argument I'm trying to counter.
t-3 5y ago
Maybe. It may be worth considering, however, that the reactions humans/other animals have to these substances are not necessarily accidental. Mammalia is young, plants are old, and have tamed us in many ways.

dnh44 5y ago

Humans aren't the only mammals on this planet that consume alcohol. https://news.berkeley.edu/2014/07/01/drunken-monkeys-and-our-thirst-for-booze/ https://news.berkeley.edu/2014/07/01/drunken-monkeys-and-our...

rex_lupi 5y ago
That'd still be "recreational use", not as staple food
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  Is anybody in this discussion advocating alcohol as a staple food? A staple food is something that makes up a dominant portion of one's diet; it's beyond a mere common or everyday food. A staple food, food staple, or simply a staple, is a food that is eaten routinely and in such quantities that it constitutes a dominant portion of a standard diet for a given person or group of people, supplying a large fraction of energy needs and generally forming a significant proportion of the intake of other nutrients as well I would certainly agree with you that alcohol is not a very safe choice for a staple food!

Karrot_Kream 5y ago

Sure, but what if you tripped and sprained your ankle? Yeah it hurts in the moment, but would it cognitively impair you the next day? It certainly might; maybe when you're thinking about something while in the shower, you put too much weight on the ankle and the pain makes you drop your train of thought. I think the point that GP was going for was (or what I read at least) that there are many human experiences which cause some form of cognitive impairment; it's more important to see how deleterious the impairment actually is to the individual and to society before judging it.

revax 5y ago

>Alcohol/thc/caffeine/nicotine (you name it) do not fall in the "natural" diet of humans. Well Sapiens likely consumed naturally fermented fruits even 200.000 years ago, after all we evolved to produce certain enzymes to digest ethanol. Alcohol have shaped human cultures for thousand years, hardly unnatural. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/article/alcohol-discovery-addiction-booze-human-culture https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/article/alcohol-...

kumarvvr 5y ago
Your argument is absurd. Sure, some caveman consumed alcohol that happened to occur naturally a gazillion years ago. So? You think huge factories producing alcohol and all the issues associated with it are justified? By what you say, if whole of humanity consumed only naturally fermented fruit, I would half-heartedly agree.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- chii 5y ago
  > You think huge factories producing alcohol and all the issues associated with it are justified? Humans also don't "naturally" need to be writing fictions, or draw pictures or make movies. And conversely, murder is pretty natural - take a look at how often it happens in nature! Whether something is "natural" or not is a bit irrelevant - the big question is whether the action should be acceptable for humans to do. Drinking alcohol affects the person drinking it, but it gives them some comfort, or happiness. As long as they don't drink so much that it harms another person, i say they can do what they wish! Same with pot and other recreational drugs.
  - themaninthedark 5y ago
    Not just murder, wars and genocide.
988747 5y ago
Still we are not hamsters - hamsters can take 20x the amount of alcohol per body weight as humans, because for them it IS natural to base their diet on fermented fruits from their stashes. Humans are not like that.

TylerE 5y ago

For thousands of years humans routinely (e.g with every meal, even children) consumed low alcohol beer/wine), because it could be safely stored for extended periods, unlike water. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer

blacksmith_tb 5y ago
Sure, just like lacto-fermenting foods to preserve them. However stored water could always be boiled? I have always thought it was funny that the most obvious "health benefit" of tea-drinking was boiling water to prepare it (yes, I realize not all teas are brewed so hot, and there are plenty of interesting compounds in there, but still...)

fogihujy 5y ago

SSRI's or Benzodapines have severe side-effects, yet relying on them to survive isn't seen as disruptive to society. There may be an argument against self-medicating with Alcohol or Cannabis, but them being un-natural isn't it.

rex_lupi 5y ago
That's totally not the argument I'm trying to counter.

t-3 5y ago

Maybe. It may be worth considering, however, that the reactions humans/other animals have to these substances are not necessarily accidental. Mammalia is young, plants are old, and have tamed us in many ways.