4 ms·

I'd be interested if can you supply a good body of evidence to support the claim that significant, widespread de-policing has occurred in the US and it's effect

by altacc 5y ago

I'd be interested if can you supply a good body of evidence to support the claim that significant, widespread de-policing has occurred in the US and it's effects. Mostly I've just seen opinion pieces that cherry pick numbers.

nostromo 5y ago
Seattle, as an example, lost 1 out of 5 cops between 2020 and 2021. Crime, including violent crimes like murder, are all up. Closed cases are down. There are new lists of crimes that are “deprioritized” every few months. This last month it was a laundry list of crimes related to traffic safety, like expired tabs or missing license plates. A local businessperson that posted memes in 2020 about defunding the police just had his business ransacked again a few weeks ago. He then took to social media to complain about how Seattle is no longer safe and he may leave the city. It’s like people have completely lost grip with reality.
- kelnos 5y ago
  An anecdote about Seattle is not evidence of significant, widespread de-policing across the US. At any rate, de-prioritizing expired tabs and missing plates seems like a nothingburger.
  - nostromo 5y ago
    > The U.S. murder rate rose 30% between 2019 and 2020 – the largest single-year increase in more than a century, according to data published this month by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/06/health/us-homicide-rate-increase-nchs-study/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/06/health/us-homicide-rate-incre...
    - altacc 5y ago
      Where’s the link to reduced policing? Crime rates are most definitely not as simple an equation as more police = less crime. There’s a myriad of factors at work and taking any simple assumption of a single cause and effect is bound to be wrong.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      I really hate news articles that talk about an increase in rate yet only show a graph of absolute numbers to reason about it.
- taeric 5y ago
  Such an odd example, though; as in that time they also lost a lot to people that refused to get vaccinated. :( Do you have a good link that lays out the numbers?
- alistairSH 5y ago
  How did it lose the cops? Was it actual de-policing, or did they just quit and go elsewhere on their own?
  - vkou 5y ago
    They quit voluntarily. For some reason, SPD can't figure out how to hire people. Maybe it's due to their culture...
    - alistairSH 5y ago
      I have a few friends in Seattle and policing is definitely broken, particularly dealing with crime related to the homeless encampments dotted all over. No question about that.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  > Crime, including violent crimes like murder, are all up. Per capita? I'm looking at the crime stats in Seattle. For a city with a population growth of 2.2%, it doesn't seem that crime has gone up significantly. If anything, this proves that police does not prevent crimes.
  - nostromo 5y ago
    Look at shootings and homicides, which are reported more consistency than low-level crimes (people have given up reporting many of these). 2020 was up 50%. And 2021 is outpacing 2020.
    - manuelabeledo 5y ago
      > And 2021 is outpacing 2020. There were less homicides in 2021 than in 2020. In total, there were less crimes in 2021 than in 2018, with a 2.2% population increase.
      - nostromo 5y ago
        Gun violence spiked in 2020, and continued to increase in 2021. https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls "Homicide" is a fungible term, one that is gamed by city officials and prosecutors that want to show lower violence levels in their city. Gun violence totals are much harder to game. And those continue to rise in the US.
        manuelabeledo 5y ago
        Where's Seattle in here? Also, it seems that, according to data, 2020 and 2021 have seen significantly less incidents than years 2015 to 2018. I don't think I get your point, though. This seems to point more towards gun control, than increasing police budgets.
- weq 5y ago
  Ahh buisness. The econonmic driver that keeps on driving, looking for tax breaks where-ever they can get them. Big buisness, you made your bed, now sleep in it. You missed the bit about 50+yrs of racism and class war fare that has created the America you live in today. Not a policy change from last year my friend. You are living in a sickness, just because you now are starting to to turn the tide, does not mean you will not have to deal with ongoing side-effects while the transition happens. At one point, we need to realise that this IS Capitalism. This IS the SYSTEM. This IS the product. Haves, and have nots. At some point, the have nots will not respect the system that entrenches them in servatude. That is why the Romans weaponised religious practices, fear of death is the only thing that overrides all...
chrissnell 5y ago
It's not actual de-policing, as in "firing cops". It's a sea change in what cops are willing to do while on duty. They have watched the televised trials of cops who have--for whatever reason, just or unjust--been prosecuted for crimes committed while performing the jobs. In 2022, every cop looks at a call through the lens of "will I go to prison if I respond to this?". So now, we have criminals committing all sorts of crimes on the street (violent and not) and a police force that is unwilling to pursue these criminals for fear of the bad guy pulling a knife, or a gun, or having a heart attack while being arrested. The cop gets a felony charge, gets doxxed by the media and Twitter, and gets a spectacle trial, sometimes with the President of the United States weighing in, and usually ends up completely f'ed, even if found not guilty. It's much easier for them to just drive on by and let the crime happen and tell dispatch that they couldn't find the guy.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  > In 2022, every cop looks at a call through the lens of "will I go to prison if I respond to this?" Good. Why wouldn't we want police accountability? Even more, an officer is a public servant and must be held to a higher standard than petty criminals. The fact that some people would think otherwise is mind boggling.
  - david38 5y ago
    That’s not how accountability works. Clearly you’ve never been in this sort of situation where the prescribed action is very close to what will get you sued or killed. Until people stop with “all cops” and stop painting all criminals as down-on-their-luck saints, we will stay this way. This is no different than saying “all men are rapists” or “all women are gold diggers”.
    - manuelabeledo 5y ago
      Wow, this is a pitiful take. > Clearly you’ve never been in this sort of situation where the prescribed action is very close to what will get you sued or killed. Clearly not, but why would that matter? I recognise three things. First, the purpose of police departments should be to protect citizens, not abuse them. Second, officers should be trained to de-escalate, not to shoot first and ask later. And third, the US clearly has issues with the use of force by their police. > This is no different than saying “all men are rapists” or “all women are gold diggers Is it customary among men and women to excuse and enable immoral or even criminal behaviours? It is not. But the same cannot be said about police departments and unions.

by altacc 5y ago

nostromo 5y ago

Seattle, as an example, lost 1 out of 5 cops between 2020 and 2021. Crime, including violent crimes like murder, are all up. Closed cases are down. There are new lists of crimes that are “deprioritized” every few months. This last month it was a laundry list of crimes related to traffic safety, like expired tabs or missing license plates. A local businessperson that posted memes in 2020 about defunding the police just had his business ransacked again a few weeks ago. He then took to social media to complain about how Seattle is no longer safe and he may leave the city. It’s like people have completely lost grip with reality.

kelnos 5y ago
An anecdote about Seattle is not evidence of significant, widespread de-policing across the US. At any rate, de-prioritizing expired tabs and missing plates seems like a nothingburger.
- nostromo 5y ago
  > The U.S. murder rate rose 30% between 2019 and 2020 – the largest single-year increase in more than a century, according to data published this month by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/06/health/us-homicide-rate-increase-nchs-study/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/06/health/us-homicide-rate-incre...
  - altacc 5y ago
    Where’s the link to reduced policing? Crime rates are most definitely not as simple an equation as more police = less crime. There’s a myriad of factors at work and taking any simple assumption of a single cause and effect is bound to be wrong.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    I really hate news articles that talk about an increase in rate yet only show a graph of absolute numbers to reason about it.
taeric 5y ago
Such an odd example, though; as in that time they also lost a lot to people that refused to get vaccinated. :( Do you have a good link that lays out the numbers?
alistairSH 5y ago
How did it lose the cops? Was it actual de-policing, or did they just quit and go elsewhere on their own?
- vkou 5y ago
  They quit voluntarily. For some reason, SPD can't figure out how to hire people. Maybe it's due to their culture...
  - alistairSH 5y ago
    I have a few friends in Seattle and policing is definitely broken, particularly dealing with crime related to the homeless encampments dotted all over. No question about that.
manuelabeledo 5y ago
> Crime, including violent crimes like murder, are all up. Per capita? I'm looking at the crime stats in Seattle. For a city with a population growth of 2.2%, it doesn't seem that crime has gone up significantly. If anything, this proves that police does not prevent crimes.
- nostromo 5y ago
  Look at shootings and homicides, which are reported more consistency than low-level crimes (people have given up reporting many of these). 2020 was up 50%. And 2021 is outpacing 2020.
  - manuelabeledo 5y ago
    > And 2021 is outpacing 2020. There were less homicides in 2021 than in 2020. In total, there were less crimes in 2021 than in 2018, with a 2.2% population increase.
    - nostromo 5y ago
      Gun violence spiked in 2020, and continued to increase in 2021. https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls "Homicide" is a fungible term, one that is gamed by city officials and prosecutors that want to show lower violence levels in their city. Gun violence totals are much harder to game. And those continue to rise in the US.
      - manuelabeledo 5y ago
        Where's Seattle in here? Also, it seems that, according to data, 2020 and 2021 have seen significantly less incidents than years 2015 to 2018. I don't think I get your point, though. This seems to point more towards gun control, than increasing police budgets.
weq 5y ago
Ahh buisness. The econonmic driver that keeps on driving, looking for tax breaks where-ever they can get them. Big buisness, you made your bed, now sleep in it. You missed the bit about 50+yrs of racism and class war fare that has created the America you live in today. Not a policy change from last year my friend. You are living in a sickness, just because you now are starting to to turn the tide, does not mean you will not have to deal with ongoing side-effects while the transition happens. At one point, we need to realise that this IS Capitalism. This IS the SYSTEM. This IS the product. Haves, and have nots. At some point, the have nots will not respect the system that entrenches them in servatude. That is why the Romans weaponised religious practices, fear of death is the only thing that overrides all...

chrissnell 5y ago

It's not actual de-policing, as in "firing cops". It's a sea change in what cops are willing to do while on duty. They have watched the televised trials of cops who have--for whatever reason, just or unjust--been prosecuted for crimes committed while performing the jobs. In 2022, every cop looks at a call through the lens of "will I go to prison if I respond to this?". So now, we have criminals committing all sorts of crimes on the street (violent and not) and a police force that is unwilling to pursue these criminals for fear of the bad guy pulling a knife, or a gun, or having a heart attack while being arrested. The cop gets a felony charge, gets doxxed by the media and Twitter, and gets a spectacle trial, sometimes with the President of the United States weighing in, and usually ends up completely f'ed, even if found not guilty. It's much easier for them to just drive on by and let the crime happen and tell dispatch that they couldn't find the guy.

manuelabeledo 5y ago
> In 2022, every cop looks at a call through the lens of "will I go to prison if I respond to this?" Good. Why wouldn't we want police accountability? Even more, an officer is a public servant and must be held to a higher standard than petty criminals. The fact that some people would think otherwise is mind boggling.
- david38 5y ago
  That’s not how accountability works. Clearly you’ve never been in this sort of situation where the prescribed action is very close to what will get you sued or killed. Until people stop with “all cops” and stop painting all criminals as down-on-their-luck saints, we will stay this way. This is no different than saying “all men are rapists” or “all women are gold diggers”.
  - manuelabeledo 5y ago
    Wow, this is a pitiful take. > Clearly you’ve never been in this sort of situation where the prescribed action is very close to what will get you sued or killed. Clearly not, but why would that matter? I recognise three things. First, the purpose of police departments should be to protect citizens, not abuse them. Second, officers should be trained to de-escalate, not to shoot first and ask later. And third, the US clearly has issues with the use of force by their police. > This is no different than saying “all men are rapists” or “all women are gold diggers Is it customary among men and women to excuse and enable immoral or even criminal behaviours? It is not. But the same cannot be said about police departments and unions.