3 ms·

You can take a look at this article [1], I think it does a good job of explaining why black-starting a power grid is risky and time consuming, especially when n

You can take a look at this article [1], I think it does a good job of explaining why black-starting a power grid is risky and time consuming, especially when not maintained well. "It’s a large stepwise process to build up load, build up generation, build up more load, build up more generation until they’ve got enough reliability to go to the next element of the system..." There are added challenges in a distributed system. Black-starting a hydroelectric plant is easy but I doubt if Texas has any. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/venezuela-power-outage-black-start/ https://www.wired.com/story/venezuela-power-outage-black-sta...

liketochill 5y ago
That article is not wrong. It doesn’t go in to much technical detail. Black starting a plant is one thing which can basically be solved by having a working and large enough diesel generator on site to power the plant auxiliary systems such as oil and water pumps required for start up. Reenergizing all of the loads in a large system from zero is another thing. Energizing transmission lines with no load are essentially giant capacitors that initially appear as a dead short, energizing transformers that are essentially giant inductors that initially appear as a dead short, energizing resistive loads requires all of the sudden opening whatever the throttle on the power plant is - water flow, steam flow which itself requires gas/coal/feed water/etc in to a boiler, or natural gas, that is as rough on equipment as flooring the engine in your car except you have to make sure the power plants connected are as large as the loads being connected. And the inertia in the rotating masses in the system has to be enough to supply the energy to the load until those throttles open and generate the additional energy - time delays here are measured in seconds. How do the fish in the river or the people camping on the river bank like it when the river goes from 5% to 100% all of the sudden? More restrictions and considerations there. The whole process is a bunch of step responses to systems at unusual operating points. Operators of many facilities that normally just run at constant load points won’t be familiar with the unusual demands placed on the equipment. Equipment will be operating both at minimum and maximum limits in very short time spans. It’s a recipe for equipment failures unless it is practiced regularly. Solar and wind unless supplanted by batteries are no help here either.
- pjc50 5y ago
  > Solar and wind unless supplanted by batteries are no help here either. Solar systems are on inverters, so capable of very fast response - unless the controller decides it doesn't like what it's seeing and trips out again. A bad inverter trip was the cause of this UK outage: https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/orsted-and-rwe-fined-millions-for-major-uk-blackout https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/orsted-and-rwe-... (missing a software update from Siemens!) Grid batteries would definitely help a lot here as they're similarly capable of fast response, and providing artificial "inertia" to the system.
  - liketochill 5y ago
    a solar system should be able to ramp to as much power is instantaneously available instantaneously, thereby decreasing the magnitude of the load step by the amount of solar power available Inverters don’t like to energize lines though since they normally follow the system waveform. The inverters would have to be connected with a low load set point and frequency regulation eg droop enabled and then they certainly could help with the system response.
- jjt-yn_t 5y ago
mvc 5y ago
Sounds a bit like bootstrapping a lisp.

liketochill 5y ago

That article is not wrong. It doesn’t go in to much technical detail. Black starting a plant is one thing which can basically be solved by having a working and large enough diesel generator on site to power the plant auxiliary systems such as oil and water pumps required for start up. Reenergizing all of the loads in a large system from zero is another thing. Energizing transmission lines with no load are essentially giant capacitors that initially appear as a dead short, energizing transformers that are essentially giant inductors that initially appear as a dead short, energizing resistive loads requires all of the sudden opening whatever the throttle on the power plant is - water flow, steam flow which itself requires gas/coal/feed water/etc in to a boiler, or natural gas, that is as rough on equipment as flooring the engine in your car except you have to make sure the power plants connected are as large as the loads being connected. And the inertia in the rotating masses in the system has to be enough to supply the energy to the load until those throttles open and generate the additional energy - time delays here are measured in seconds. How do the fish in the river or the people camping on the river bank like it when the river goes from 5% to 100% all of the sudden? More restrictions and considerations there. The whole process is a bunch of step responses to systems at unusual operating points. Operators of many facilities that normally just run at constant load points won’t be familiar with the unusual demands placed on the equipment. Equipment will be operating both at minimum and maximum limits in very short time spans. It’s a recipe for equipment failures unless it is practiced regularly. Solar and wind unless supplanted by batteries are no help here either.

pjc50 5y ago
> Solar and wind unless supplanted by batteries are no help here either. Solar systems are on inverters, so capable of very fast response - unless the controller decides it doesn't like what it's seeing and trips out again. A bad inverter trip was the cause of this UK outage: https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/orsted-and-rwe-fined-millions-for-major-uk-blackout https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/orsted-and-rwe-... (missing a software update from Siemens!) Grid batteries would definitely help a lot here as they're similarly capable of fast response, and providing artificial "inertia" to the system.
- liketochill 5y ago
  a solar system should be able to ramp to as much power is instantaneously available instantaneously, thereby decreasing the magnitude of the load step by the amount of solar power available Inverters don’t like to energize lines though since they normally follow the system waveform. The inverters would have to be connected with a low load set point and frequency regulation eg droop enabled and then they certainly could help with the system response.
jjt-yn_t 5y ago

mvc 5y ago

Sounds a bit like bootstrapping a lisp.