7 ms·

Yeah who knows what unequivocal advice we could be getting from experts right now that will be thoroughly debunked 70 years from now. (Are dairy and grains sti

Yeah who knows what unequivocal advice we could be getting from experts right now that will be thoroughly debunked 70 years from now. (Are dairy and grains still food groups... I could easily go on)

gruez 5y ago
>(Are dairy and grains still food groups... I could easily go on) I don't get it. Are you saying that grain shouldn't be a food group? I think for the purposes of categorizing foods, "starchy staples" is a pretty useful categorization, even if the recommendation to eat 8 servings a day or whatever is misguided.
- programmarchy 5y ago
  He's probably referring to the food pyramid, in which those food groups were put forth as foundational building blocks of a healthy diet according to the USDA. [1] That saga overlapped with the sugar lobby blaming fats for heart issues [2], and using their weight with the FDA to keep % Daily Values for sugars off food labels until very recently. [3] [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8375951/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8375951/ [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074/50-years-ago-sugar-industry-quietly-paid-scientists-to-point-blame-at-fat https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074... [3] https://www.vox.com/2016/5/20/11719796/new-nutrition-label-added-sugar https://www.vox.com/2016/5/20/11719796/new-nutrition-label-a...
champagnois 5y ago
- tonmoy 5y ago
  Can you cite some sources please?
  - belinder 5y ago
    More recent paper I found says we dont really know yet what happens https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2019.00142/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2019.00142...
    - 30002926 5y ago
      The focus of that study is on pregnant women and developing fetuses. That's a far cry from "Soy is poison" full stop.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- jack1243star 5y ago
  And yet the Japanese have high life expectancy?
  - champagnois 5y ago
    - 30002926 5y ago
      How do you know this?
      - champagnois 5y ago
        Chinese family. Have lived there and among chinese elite for most of my life.
        fomine3 5y ago
        Not true in Japan. Everyone eat soy based foods like tofu without worrying.
  - DoreenMichele 5y ago
    Not necessarily evidence that it isn't problematic for other people. The Japanese seem to be different in ways we are still trying to sort out. The prevalence of cigarette smoking among Japanese men has been consistently high compared with Western males over the past 30 years. However, during the same period, the incidence of and mortality rates for lung cancer have consistently been lower in Japan than in Western countries ('Japanese smoking paradox'). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12889681/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12889681/
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Now go take a look at the protein in every store bought baby formula option Cow milk; the major infant formula brands, in their main product line, may include soy oil (they use a variety of oils depending on changing supply circumstances) which is not a protein source, and do not include any other soy products. There are soy protein formulas for infants with galactosemia, who can take neither breast milk nor cow milk based formulas, but that's a fairly special niche. > any store bought nutrition shake Very often, cow milk (whey protein isolate and/or milk protein isolate are common), though soy and pea protein are also common.
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  It may not be soy per se. It may be GMO soy that's the problem. From what I gather, a very high percentage of soy is GMO, far more than is typical for most food items.
  - seattle_spring 5y ago
    What exactly is the health difference between GMO and non-GMO soy? Any reputable sources you can share?
    - hammock 5y ago
      The difference would be pesticide residue
    - DoreenMichele 5y ago
      I don't have sources, sorry, and probably shouldn't have replied because my remark falls under what HN likes to dismiss as anecdotal: I have trouble tolerating soy. Someone I trust suggested to me it might not be soy per se that I have an issue with. It might be GMO soy that is an issue for me. Some years ago, I did look up stats verifying that soy was GMO at a shockingly high percentage. I had no reason to track those sources and haven't revisited it recently. In my case, this seems like a plausible explanation for my issue. Though I have a genetic disorder and I'm very sensitive to all kinds of details of food chemistry and pay close attention to such for my health. But "It works for me" has never been respected anywhere on the planet as any kind of meaningful observation that anyone wants to hear. Feel free to ignore it.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > I have trouble tolerating soy Trouble tolerating soy is one of the more common problems with food tolerance. > Someone I trust suggested to me it might not be soy per se that I have an issue with. It might be GMO soy that is an issue for me. It's theoretically possible that this could be the case, even though GMO foods are much more extensively tested for general safety than crops developed through means that aren't technically GMO (including ones that produces larger and less predictable genetic changes, like modifying the genetics by mutagenesis), but it's kind of a weird thing to suggest, given how frequently soy is a problem (which has been true longer than GMO soy has been on the market) without some very strong reason to believe it's not just a problem with soy as such.
- Melatonic 5y ago
  This is just completely BS Legumes are great for you - keep eating them. Obviously don't eat some super processed soybean adjacent "food".
  - jjeaff 5y ago
    Apparently, the least processed forms of soybean contain the most endocrine disrupting substance.
- jrockway 5y ago
  A measured response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8dfiDeJeDU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8dfiDeJeDU
- 30002926 5y ago
  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19524224/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19524224/ "Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men: results of a meta-analysis"
  - collegeburner 5y ago
    "Clinical studies show this cigarette improves throat irritation" The medical establishment is mostly government funded. The govermemt is in bed with big ag, ABCDs, and soy producers. I dont trust them on this. Regardless a newer paper concludes more research needed: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32824177/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32824177/
- sockaddr 5y ago
  Question: How do we reconcile "soy is poison" with the fact that some cultures include massive amounts of soy in their diet with little known detriment? For instance, the Japanese seem to eat tons of the stuff in various forms all the time but they seem to lead healthy lives. I don't have any skin in the game, just curious.
  - champagnois 5y ago
    Asian cultures are aware. In China for example, tofu is one of the cheapest possible protein sources (think in terms of a massive pallet of it sold for five dollars) but people are generally aware that it is poisonous in some weird ways that won't kill you. Males are generally urged not to consume it. This could be a knowledge of just the upper class, though. An unspoken suggestion to leave the tofu and soy for the poor.
    - simlevesque 5y ago
      So it's all a big conspiracy of the elite against the masses ?
      - chihuahua 5y ago
        Pretty much anything is a conspiracy if you ask certain people.
        boogies 5y ago
        No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. — Mark Twain
    - lifeformed 5y ago
      So the vast majority of Asians have disrupted endocrine systems?
    - sooheon 5y ago
      According to this (https://www.otsuka.co.jp/en/nutraceutical/about/soylution/encyclopedia/consumption.html https://www.otsuka.co.jp/en/nutraceutical/about/soylution/en...) Japan consumes 8.19 kg/year/person of soy, while the US consumes 0.04 kg/year/person. That's 200x difference. Japanese life expectancy is half a decade longer than the US, not to mention 1/10 the obesity.
- tasty_freeze 5y ago
  > Soy is poison The concern about soy in infant food is well placed, but your broad statement is hyperbolic. I don't know where you are, but I'm in the US, where 2/3 of adults are overweight, and half of them are obese. Whatever effect soy has on our endocrine systems, it is dwarfed by the effects caused by body fat itself. As for the effect of soy on adults, for most people there is no problem unless they have excessive soy consumption, and those problems are fixed simply by eating less soy. Soy also has known health benefits, and an honest discussion would weigh the two. From 2018: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC5646220/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC5646220/ "Neuroendocrine disruption by soya isoflavones in mature neuroendocrine systems is by and large reversible with dietary modification and thus, with the exception of some hypersensitive groups such as hypothyroid and oncology patients, soya likely poses no long term health risk and may even confer modest benefits."
  - champagnois 5y ago
    I agree with you on all points, but I will say that the thread topic is specifically about headlines 75 years from now rather than what current authorities claim today... So naturally, every correct answer would be controversial in the present. The truth eventually wins. It is no soy for my family.
dylan604 5y ago
High Fructose Syrup is the one I'm holding out hope on. Social Media consumption is another.
kipchak 5y ago
Vegetable/seed oils is one I’ve been seeing recently.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
idnefju 5y ago
some humans have been drinking animal dairy for so many thousands of years that some ethnicities have evolved to have a lactose breaking down mutation into adulthood
- lopis 5y ago
  The amount of dairy and refined dairy products people consume today, like meat, is orders of magnitude bigger than back in the day.
- daenz 5y ago
  >evolved Not disagreeing, but that's a much nicer way of saying that nobody wanted to mate with the ones having constant diarrhea.
frozenport 5y ago
That vaping and nicotine is harmless (just like coffee!) despite seeing the negative effects of nicotine intake on developing fetuses.
ya_throw 5y ago
Yet the current zeitgeist is "Trust the experts, fool!" We never frikkin learn.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- nzp7chfjks 5y ago
  Using the word "science" to frame your argument automatically discredits any counterpoint.
  - version_five 5y ago
    This is why there is supposed to be separation of church and stage, but such rules didn't anticipate "science" becoming religion that is exempt from the criticism of religion. We need some updated principles that separate dogma and faith from legitimate motivations
    - ya_throw 5y ago
      https://www.bicyclerepairman.cc/laymans_guide/ https://www.bicyclerepairman.cc/laymans_guide/

Yeah who knows what unequivocal advice we could be getting from experts right now that will be thoroughly debunked 70 years from now. (Are dairy and grains still food groups... I could easily go on)

gruez 5y ago

>(Are dairy and grains still food groups... I could easily go on) I don't get it. Are you saying that grain shouldn't be a food group? I think for the purposes of categorizing foods, "starchy staples" is a pretty useful categorization, even if the recommendation to eat 8 servings a day or whatever is misguided.

programmarchy 5y ago
He's probably referring to the food pyramid, in which those food groups were put forth as foundational building blocks of a healthy diet according to the USDA. [1] That saga overlapped with the sugar lobby blaming fats for heart issues [2], and using their weight with the FDA to keep % Daily Values for sugars off food labels until very recently. [3] [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8375951/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8375951/ [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074/50-years-ago-sugar-industry-quietly-paid-scientists-to-point-blame-at-fat https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074... [3] https://www.vox.com/2016/5/20/11719796/new-nutrition-label-added-sugar https://www.vox.com/2016/5/20/11719796/new-nutrition-label-a...

champagnois 5y ago

tonmoy 5y ago
Can you cite some sources please?
- belinder 5y ago
  More recent paper I found says we dont really know yet what happens https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2019.00142/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2019.00142...
  - 30002926 5y ago
    The focus of that study is on pregnant women and developing fetuses. That's a far cry from "Soy is poison" full stop.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jack1243star 5y ago
And yet the Japanese have high life expectancy?
- champagnois 5y ago
  - 30002926 5y ago
    How do you know this?
    - champagnois 5y ago
      Chinese family. Have lived there and among chinese elite for most of my life.
      - fomine3 5y ago
        Not true in Japan. Everyone eat soy based foods like tofu without worrying.
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  Not necessarily evidence that it isn't problematic for other people. The Japanese seem to be different in ways we are still trying to sort out. The prevalence of cigarette smoking among Japanese men has been consistently high compared with Western males over the past 30 years. However, during the same period, the incidence of and mortality rates for lung cancer have consistently been lower in Japan than in Western countries ('Japanese smoking paradox'). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12889681/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12889681/
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Now go take a look at the protein in every store bought baby formula option Cow milk; the major infant formula brands, in their main product line, may include soy oil (they use a variety of oils depending on changing supply circumstances) which is not a protein source, and do not include any other soy products. There are soy protein formulas for infants with galactosemia, who can take neither breast milk nor cow milk based formulas, but that's a fairly special niche. > any store bought nutrition shake Very often, cow milk (whey protein isolate and/or milk protein isolate are common), though soy and pea protein are also common.
DoreenMichele 5y ago
It may not be soy per se. It may be GMO soy that's the problem. From what I gather, a very high percentage of soy is GMO, far more than is typical for most food items.
- seattle_spring 5y ago
  What exactly is the health difference between GMO and non-GMO soy? Any reputable sources you can share?
  - hammock 5y ago
    The difference would be pesticide residue
  - DoreenMichele 5y ago
    I don't have sources, sorry, and probably shouldn't have replied because my remark falls under what HN likes to dismiss as anecdotal: I have trouble tolerating soy. Someone I trust suggested to me it might not be soy per se that I have an issue with. It might be GMO soy that is an issue for me. Some years ago, I did look up stats verifying that soy was GMO at a shockingly high percentage. I had no reason to track those sources and haven't revisited it recently. In my case, this seems like a plausible explanation for my issue. Though I have a genetic disorder and I'm very sensitive to all kinds of details of food chemistry and pay close attention to such for my health. But "It works for me" has never been respected anywhere on the planet as any kind of meaningful observation that anyone wants to hear. Feel free to ignore it.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > I have trouble tolerating soy Trouble tolerating soy is one of the more common problems with food tolerance. > Someone I trust suggested to me it might not be soy per se that I have an issue with. It might be GMO soy that is an issue for me. It's theoretically possible that this could be the case, even though GMO foods are much more extensively tested for general safety than crops developed through means that aren't technically GMO (including ones that produces larger and less predictable genetic changes, like modifying the genetics by mutagenesis), but it's kind of a weird thing to suggest, given how frequently soy is a problem (which has been true longer than GMO soy has been on the market) without some very strong reason to believe it's not just a problem with soy as such.
Melatonic 5y ago
This is just completely BS Legumes are great for you - keep eating them. Obviously don't eat some super processed soybean adjacent "food".
- jjeaff 5y ago
  Apparently, the least processed forms of soybean contain the most endocrine disrupting substance.
jrockway 5y ago
A measured response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8dfiDeJeDU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8dfiDeJeDU
30002926 5y ago
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19524224/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19524224/ "Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men: results of a meta-analysis"
- collegeburner 5y ago
  "Clinical studies show this cigarette improves throat irritation" The medical establishment is mostly government funded. The govermemt is in bed with big ag, ABCDs, and soy producers. I dont trust them on this. Regardless a newer paper concludes more research needed: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32824177/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32824177/
sockaddr 5y ago
Question: How do we reconcile "soy is poison" with the fact that some cultures include massive amounts of soy in their diet with little known detriment? For instance, the Japanese seem to eat tons of the stuff in various forms all the time but they seem to lead healthy lives. I don't have any skin in the game, just curious.
- champagnois 5y ago
  Asian cultures are aware. In China for example, tofu is one of the cheapest possible protein sources (think in terms of a massive pallet of it sold for five dollars) but people are generally aware that it is poisonous in some weird ways that won't kill you. Males are generally urged not to consume it. This could be a knowledge of just the upper class, though. An unspoken suggestion to leave the tofu and soy for the poor.
  - simlevesque 5y ago
    So it's all a big conspiracy of the elite against the masses ?
    - chihuahua 5y ago
      Pretty much anything is a conspiracy if you ask certain people.
      - boogies 5y ago
        No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. — Mark Twain
  - lifeformed 5y ago
    So the vast majority of Asians have disrupted endocrine systems?
  - sooheon 5y ago
    According to this (https://www.otsuka.co.jp/en/nutraceutical/about/soylution/encyclopedia/consumption.html https://www.otsuka.co.jp/en/nutraceutical/about/soylution/en...) Japan consumes 8.19 kg/year/person of soy, while the US consumes 0.04 kg/year/person. That's 200x difference. Japanese life expectancy is half a decade longer than the US, not to mention 1/10 the obesity.
tasty_freeze 5y ago
> Soy is poison The concern about soy in infant food is well placed, but your broad statement is hyperbolic. I don't know where you are, but I'm in the US, where 2/3 of adults are overweight, and half of them are obese. Whatever effect soy has on our endocrine systems, it is dwarfed by the effects caused by body fat itself. As for the effect of soy on adults, for most people there is no problem unless they have excessive soy consumption, and those problems are fixed simply by eating less soy. Soy also has known health benefits, and an honest discussion would weigh the two. From 2018: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC5646220/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC5646220/ "Neuroendocrine disruption by soya isoflavones in mature neuroendocrine systems is by and large reversible with dietary modification and thus, with the exception of some hypersensitive groups such as hypothyroid and oncology patients, soya likely poses no long term health risk and may even confer modest benefits."
- champagnois 5y ago
  I agree with you on all points, but I will say that the thread topic is specifically about headlines 75 years from now rather than what current authorities claim today... So naturally, every correct answer would be controversial in the present. The truth eventually wins. It is no soy for my family.

dylan604 5y ago

High Fructose Syrup is the one I'm holding out hope on. Social Media consumption is another.

kipchak 5y ago

Vegetable/seed oils is one I’ve been seeing recently.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

idnefju 5y ago

some humans have been drinking animal dairy for so many thousands of years that some ethnicities have evolved to have a lactose breaking down mutation into adulthood

lopis 5y ago
The amount of dairy and refined dairy products people consume today, like meat, is orders of magnitude bigger than back in the day.
daenz 5y ago
>evolved Not disagreeing, but that's a much nicer way of saying that nobody wanted to mate with the ones having constant diarrhea.

frozenport 5y ago

That vaping and nicotine is harmless (just like coffee!) despite seeing the negative effects of nicotine intake on developing fetuses.

ya_throw 5y ago

Yet the current zeitgeist is "Trust the experts, fool!" We never frikkin learn.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nzp7chfjks 5y ago
Using the word "science" to frame your argument automatically discredits any counterpoint.
- version_five 5y ago
  This is why there is supposed to be separation of church and stage, but such rules didn't anticipate "science" becoming religion that is exempt from the criticism of religion. We need some updated principles that separate dogma and faith from legitimate motivations
  - ya_throw 5y ago
    https://www.bicyclerepairman.cc/laymans_guide/ https://www.bicyclerepairman.cc/laymans_guide/